With Andrea Silverstone & Carrie McManus

There is an epidemic of domestic violence, including coercive control. 1 in 3 women are abused.
We need to have tough conversations if we're going to make a difference. There is help to start and navigate those conversations.

Joining me on the show are two women from Sagesse in Calgary who are working hard to bring awareness, change and support to this crisis. Andrea Silverstone, CEO and Carrie McManus, Director of Innovation & Programs

To find out more:
Website: Sagesse
LinkedIn: Sagesse
Instagram: sagessecalgary
Facebook: Sagesse
Real Talk Workshops
Donate & Volunteer with Sagesse

If you are experiencing abuse, or want to support someone who is, there are many resources available for you.

Find help:
The Today Centre (Edmonton)
Women on Wings (Calgary)
Women's Shelters (Alberta) 
Women's Shelters (Canada)

Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.

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Transcript:

Deena Kordt  0:00  

It's an epidemic. This is a very serious problem. And it's something that we often think, oh, that's between them, we're going to look the other way, somebody else will take care of it. And this is awkward and cringy don't really want to go down that path, or you're not sure what you can do or how you can help. Domestic abuse, violence, coercive control, those are things that are happening in our society, one in three people. So if it isn't you, it's definitely someone you know. And someone close to you, more than likely, there are people who are really making a difference. But they also say they want to be put out of work. And I think we all want that we all want this to get better not to keep visiting the next generation and the next generation, we need to stop it happening in the first place. And in order to do that, we need to have conversations, real conversations, real talk.  

Now, Andrew Silverstone and Carrie McManus, are with me on the show today. And they are from an organization called Sagesse in Calgary, this organization has workshops called Real talk, and they'll actually help you learn to have those conversations, to have those real conversations that are going to make a difference in someone's lives. They also have a screening questionnaire that you can do online, if you're not sure if you're in an abusive situation. And for many people that's confusing, like, wouldn't I know, if I'm being abused, he's not hitting me, it's not physical. There are so many other forms of abuse. And what is very damaging about the abuse that you are exposed to where you think you're losing your mind, and you think that you have to be hyper vigilant, that's abuse.  

So we're going to be talking more about this and the programs they offer. And if you would like to be able to help, Sagesse they are looking for people to volunteer, you can donate, there are other ways to support these organizations that help make changes in our communities. And in our world. I'm really pleased to have these ladies with me today. Let's get into our conversation with them now.  

Welcome, Sagesse ladies, Carrie, Andrea, thank you so much for being with me today. It is very encouraging. As someone who's been through abuse and coming out the other side, trying to build more awareness to know that there are people like you who are doing what you do, to bring awareness and to support people, whether they are just in the process of discovering the abuse that they're in. And we're gonna get into that. Because that is hard to explain to a lot of people, whether they're in the middle of it or coming out the other side. So welcome, ladies. Let's start with you, Andrea, and please tell us more about yourself. Your WHY. What brought you to Sagesse?

Andrea Silverstone  3:22  

Oh, that's a great question. So my name is Andrea Silverstone. And I am the CEO of Sagesse. And I think that for me, the question is actually what brought me to this work, the work of working with those who, as I identified it, when I began experiencing domestic abuse, and now I would say that those who experienced coercive control, and so I think that course of control is pervasive and prevalent in society. I think it's at epidemic levels. I think it always has been. I think that as a society, we're getting better at naming it. And I think we're also getting better at naming it in more than just domestic violence arenas, but other arenas that exist as well like sexual violence and high coercion groups and that sort of thing. And so for me, the why of suggests is I believe that everyone deserves to have peaceful, healthy, respectful relationships. And I want to be a part of the, you know, action to make that happen.

Deena Kordt  4:21  

Of that. And yeah, we're gonna dig into more on coercive control. There's more attention being given to it in the public eye, I feel with the legal system starting to make changes as well. So it's very encouraging that this is being recognized and people realize like, and recognize what they may be living and why their mental health and their their physical health and everything is, is suffering from this. Carrie. You're up next.

Carrie McManus  4:51  

Wonderful. Well, thanks so much for having us. I'm Carrie. I'm the Director of Innovation and Programs with Sagesse and me I Why is a why of, I think both an introspection and an internal journey of understanding our stories and our experiences and going through that process myself and wanting to be able to support other people going through that process, whatever that might look like for them. And whatever those journeys and experiences are, as well as a process of community and an observation and seeing the the need and the opportunity for shifting the common narrative that we have around domestic abuse, and around coercive control. And around who experiences that and how they experienced that, and what's available. And really wanting to be able to be a part of both supporting those individuals who are being impacted, whether that's somebody who is using violence, somebody who's experiencing violence, or or the people in the community around them, as well as the sector that we're in, and the work that we do, as service providers and looking at how do we think about and do this work differently in this changing world, and have a goal for actually putting ourselves out of a job I - my why often comes down to, I'd love to retire to the Scottish countryside and, and, you know, live in the rain and the fog. And in order to be able to do that we have to figure out a way to make domestic abuse not the issue that it is. And I feel committed to that journey, and eager to move to a place with great food and scotch.

Deena Kordt  6:40  

Well, let's work really hard to make that happen. Carrie, I think we all have, even if we're doing this just to get you to Scotland, it's still gonna be worth it. But yeah, I love your passion. And both of you, can you please jump right in to describing abuse that people don't necessarily recognize physical for generations has been recognized as to majority of the public. And depending on culture, as well as abuse or violence, whether it's in a intimate partner relationship, a family, workplace, whatever, that it's, that's violence. But there is so much more to this, that is violent, it is destructive, it is abuse, and trying to explain to someone who's in it, yes, that is abuse. That's hard enough, and then the community around them, that's going if they don't think it's abuse, then why would we even consider that it's abuse. And that's a challenge. But I found that when I shared some little scenarios, when I was keynote speaker at our fundraiser recently, that's when it started to hit home because people could then relate to a situation. So do you find that that's sometimes what takes it to a revelation for someone, whether they're in it or wanting to support someone is to actually say, Okay, how would you feel if this happened to you? Or how do you what do you find with your programming? And what's the best approach? I think, you know, I'll

Andrea Silverstone  8:19  

begin and then I'll sort of carry jump in and talk about some of the analogies that we use. And I think that, for me, what's most important is starting with, I think, maybe a bit of education. And I think that the first piece of education is is that, for us, we talk about domestic abuse in terms of course of control. And when we say coercive control, what we mean is a pattern of behavior that makes an individual lose their personal agency or their ability to make decisions in their own best interest. Right. And so why do people make decisions against their own best interests, because they're afraid of the ramifications of making that decision. And so the reason that we probably don't use examples so much is because for each person, right, the thing that's being used to perpetrate the course of control is usually something that's very sacred to them, very important to them, but could be different for every individual. And so for us, we ask questions more like, Are you afraid that if you don't do what this person wants you to do that something bad is going to happen? And now you have made a different decision as a result of it?

Deena Kordt  9:27

That's powerful. And that's very specific that they can apply to their own personal situation.

Carrie McManus  9:35  

We often talk about coercive control being the experience, of course of control being sort of like a Jenga tower, right, and that you never really know when the next block is going to cause things to fall in that fall, because look like any number of things. And I think that, you know, using analogies like that allow clients or allow the people that we're working with whoever and whatever their experience might be to be able to to root themselves within that without the judgment of saying, well, if I'm not experiencing exactly this thing, or this didn't exactly happen to me, then it's not valid, or it's not important. I remember when we first started talking about coercive control, I heard about it at a conference. And I remember calling Andrea and saying, Oh, my God, this is it. This is the thing that we've been missing. This is the thing that makes the difference for all of those clients who call and I answer the phone, and they say, I'm not experiencing abuse, but and then they would go on to tell me these stories of feeling like they had no personal agency, feeling like they were in this pattern where everything that they did was wrong, and that they never knew what was sort of happening.  

And each one was different. And each one was unique. And the things that caused, you know, escalations, and violence or abuse were different, and that what that escalation looked like and felt like we're different, but this underlying feeling was the same. And of course, if control, give us the language to be able to say, we see you and we hear you. And it's really valid, and it's really important. And you're not going to find this on a list of red flags. You know, for years, our Secretary used to talk about here are the red flags, here are the things to consider if your partner does X, Y, and Z. And I often, you know, talk about a friend who got new appliances and their smart appliances. And I was at her house one day and her partner came home from work. And he said, you know, Oh, I like notice that the clothes sat in the dryer for 20 minutes today. And she said, Yeah, because Carrie and I were doing something and it was this friendly banter back and forth. And it was mostly about the two of them figuring out that this was so fun that they could look at these appliances and see what was happening and then have these conversations, there was no fear, there was no underlying pattern of feeling like this person is judging me, or there's ramifications for this, or I'm being monitored.  

But in some relationships, that can be a totally different experience, having a smart appliance that says, Why are you standing with the fridge open for 20 minutes, or 10 minutes or five minutes, could have a totally different feeling for somebody. And so when we talk about giving examples, that's a great example of something that for one person could feel totally different than for somebody else. And when we, when we say, here's what we're looking for, we give this false sense of, if these things aren't happening, I'm okay. Or these things aren't happening. And I actually feel like I'm not okay. But apparently that's not valid. And it's not important. And it's not something that I get to ask for help or support around

Deena Kordt  12:43  

And I think that that's really the message that's been perpetuated around the violence there. We've compared I stayed in a situation for over 30 years, because, well, I knew of far more extreme cases, I wasn't aware that if it wasn't always physical, then it still could be abuse. And so you're right, Carrie, that is so individual, the experience, and like you mentioned, under the different values that you have, is is different. And so what means something to you, and hurts you and you're on eggshells about might not have affected somebody else the same way? Because it wasn't. It wasn't created around. Fear.

Andrea Silverstone  13:27  

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, one of the questions that you asked also is, I think part of the conversation needs to be for those who are experiencing it to be able to know that abuse is more than just a broken bone or a black eye. But I also think that friends and family need to know that abuse is more than a, you know, black eye and broken bone. Because one of the things that I think also limits people from being able to access help, is that when they say something like, Oh, my God, he got on my case, because I was 20, you know, the items were in the dryer for 20 minutes. Oh, so what Big Deal Bob was, you know, not really like meaning it without understanding that that could be a mechanism, of course of control. And so part of you know, what we need to also help people to recognize is we need to change the discourse. And then the other thing is, is that so often in society, people just ask, why didn't they leave? Right? Why did they just leave the abusive situation? And the and this is exactly why they didn't leave. People don't ask in the same way why why individuals don't leave cult. They understand that there's a mechanism of brainwashing that happens, and that cult members eventually start to lose their capacity to make decisions in their own best interest because they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed domestic abuse is just a cult of one. It's no different. And so we need to stop talking about things is broken bones and black eyes because we're not actually helping anyone. Especially because we know that most of abuse doesn't include physical abuse.

Deena Kordt  15:04  

And I have also heard how many cases, and this is more of a statistical piece of information, many cases of domestic abuse may not include physical. But physical, usually always includes also that curse of control. There's other abuses around the physical. And if there hasn't been physical to a point, at some point, they're very likely could be and in some cases, it's the only incident and it's fatal.

Carrie McManus  15:39  

Yeah, yeah, what we know about course of control, and the way that we talk about it at Sagesse is, we don't actually talk about different types of abuse, we talk about different mechanisms of abuse. And really, when we're looking at it, and we're thinking about it, most of that falls under coercive control. I think when we talk about types of abuse, we say, Are you experiencing physical or financial or sexual, we imply that these are separate incidents, and things that don't overlap or touch on to other things. And we know that that's not true, right? We know that an experience of, of physical violence often includes emotional components to it might include other like sexual components, and that sort of thing. And so when we talk about it ourselves, we talk about these sort of different tactics that are used within this story, of course of control. And you know, one of the things that we know about coercive control is that physical, actual physical abuse may not often take place, but the threat of that is, can be as damaging, if not more, because there's the knowledge that that could take place. And so it actually means that you could get somebody to do something at the threat that they might be harmed without ever actually having to harm them. Right. And so if you look at things like our, our court system, our family law system, all of these things need to catch up to the fact that abuse is not the physical push, it's the threat that the physical push could happen, and the fact that I'm going to change my actions and behaviors based off of that.

Deena Kordt  17:21  

And again, it's encouraging to know that the legal definition now includes threats and includes dating situations, any and those types of other relationships. You know, it's the work that's being done by yourselves as well is getting that information to the public, whether it's someone who's in a situation, or the family and village that needs their support, or just the general public, because we can do so much by understanding more, and I think, many try and avoid it, it's like, you know, that's between them. That's not our business. If we looked at, you know, somebody else will look after it, or there's some fear because they don't know where to point them to, to get the help they need, or they are afraid of for their own safety.

Andrea Silverstone  18:13  

Yeah, so what one of the things that we know is that were mostly so where people go when they experience abuse is to friends, family, and formal supporters. And that exactly what you said, all of those barriers stand in the way of informal supporters being able to really step into that request from the individual who's experiencing abuse, or sometimes using abuse. And so we actually have developed a program, an initiative called Real talk, which teaches everybody how to recognize domestic violence, empathize, ask the right questions, and listen. And there's a toolkit and there's webinars or will even come to like anywhere that a group of people who have you know, gathered will come and will, you know, talk about domestic abuse and coercive control, because we really think that we're not the solution to this issue. We think that a society that is better equipped to be able to support individuals is really the answer to this issue.

Carrie McManus  19:15  

We also, we also think that, you know, just to pick up on that, that sort of conversation around real talk, the reason it's called Real is because Real Talk is because it's about having real conversations. It's not about having all of the answers the goal, similar to how we don't give clients or people who are experiencing abuse, a list of red flags. We don't give informal supporters a list of here's the script. Here's the thing that you say if you say exactly this, everything will turn out great. We talked to them about having real conversations. We talked to them about showing up and vulnerability their own and the person that they're engaged with. And we talked to them about what it means to be able to say I'm here with you. I don't have all of the answers. I don't know all of the solution. And but I'm here with you on this journey. And I think by sort of removing that idea that an informal supporter has to know exactly what the answers are the exact right thing to say exactly who the supports and services are. We allow them to be able to recognize that they have an incredible amount of power and opportunity to be in that caring relationship and support that person without having to be an expert in domestic abuse.

Deena Kordt  20:29  

I'm so happy that you all have that. I agree with all that. That's amazing. And thank you for mentioning your program, because that was my next question. So we've, yes, there's a need, there's a need. Okay. Well, you've created something to help with that. And it's just one of the things that Sagesse does. So can you tell us more about how you support people? Sure. So

Andrea Silverstone  20:53  

they just, we believe that we actually have to support people on a few different levels, and one of them is what we call our intervention work. And that is for people that have experienced domestic abuse, or those that live at the intersection of domestic abuse and sex worker sexual exploitation. And we offer individual supports for them, as well as group supports the individual support and group support provided by peers. So those who have experienced domestic abuse themselves or sexual exploitation themselves, we train them to be volunteers, we support them as volunteers, and then they come back into our agency, and they run groups and provide individual support. And we do that actually, across the province of Alberta.  

We are also the social service response arm of Claire's law. So Claire's law is a piece of legislation here in Alberta that allows those who have been who have a suspicion that the person that they're in a relationship with, might have a history of domestic abuse, they can make a request to know that information. And at the same time, they make a request to know that information. They can also request referrals to support some services and where the help with the supports and services side. As we say, if you're already asking, if there's a history of domestic abuse, then that means your spidey senses are going off, and you probably need support and services at that point. So that's part of our prevention work the other or intervention work, the other thing that we do is we recognize that friends and family who do take disclosures experience their own, you know, trauma from hearing those stories.  

And so we also offer supports to friends and family to both deal with hearing the stories, as well as the going to court tomorrow with my sister, what do I do, I don't know what to listen to, or how to best support her. So we do that as well. But we also believe that you can't just be helping people after the incident has happened that we have to be upstream of the work as well. And so towards that end, we are the backbone agency for an initiative across the province of Alberta that has many, many organizations like over three or 400 of them involved working together to eradicate domestic and sexual violence. So we do that we also offer our Real Talk program. And, and so those are some of the things that we do. And then the last is, we can't keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting the same result. And so we have a whole department of which Carrie is the head of dedicated to innovation, figuring out better and different ways to do this. So that, you know, we can go to Scotland and I can come and visit and drink scotch.

Carrie McManus  23:36  

One of the things that we do within the animation department is we really look at what's happening, what's changing across law policy within the province and the country. And then what are we hearing from clients? What are we hearing from stakeholders. And so an example of something that we've launched based off of that is our domestic abuse screening, which is something that came out of conversations with lawyers, family law lawyers, who said, you know, we need a better way to be able to screen and support people who are in mediation, or in going through family, the family law system, to be able to understand if they're experiencing domestic abuse, and there's lots of different ways that exist right now to do that. And most of them involve lawyers spending a lot of time doing a lot of training to try to become experts in it.  

But never really, I would say, to all my friends, I apologize for not really hitting the mark, because it's not what they do. And so in consultation with a lawyer that we work closely with, we've created a screening where we can help to support lawyers to get that information, to be able to have that knowledge moving forward about the experiences of domestic abuse. Are they prevalent, how do they take that into consideration? And when they're doing mediation or arbitration, and how does that screening happen by actually the right people to be doing it, which I think is our staff, and our clinical team, because they do it every day. They talk to clients every day. They understand the nuance, of course of control, and what makes something of course of control and what makes something high conflict, because we know high conflict exists within within divorce and family law matters. And so through that consultation, in that process, we've developed a screening process where we will work directly with somebody to be able to say, tell us these details, tell us what's going on. It's a short, you know, survey that you can do probably 15 or 20 minutes online, that our staff will then review and say, We think based off of this, that we want to have a follow up conversation with you, because there's some there's some things that make us think that there might be coercive control here.  

And then in that follow up conversation, we're able to connect directly with that person. And if they are experiencing coercive control and domestic abuse, to be able to say to them, what help and support do you need? What help and support do you have? How can you support, how can we be part of this and make sure that you're safe, and make sure that you're getting the things you need, whether they're the person using violence, or the person experiencing. And so through that screening, we're seeing this ability to work, again, in this innovative and different kind of way within our sector, and with different stakeholders, but still, to the end of making sure that the person, the people who are impacted by domestic abuse, are getting the things that they need, and having this community of support and care around them.

Deena Kordt  26:42  

Incredible, incredible, you know, you've really you've you've created things to help people, whatever space they might be. And I think it's, it's not done without some very concentrated intention. And some, you know, using, for example, peer support, incredible, because if you can be supported by somebody who can, who's been in, in this type of situation, everybody's is unique, but they've experienced it, the support and the understanding, and it would I in my life, if it was me, I would quicker, more quickly reach that trust level, being able to share what I've done. And and it, the whole process would just be more effective and efficient. Because you don't have to explain and hope the person understands how this makes you feel and the rest, you've you mentioned a couple times about the users of coercive control, is that also a support that you offer in information what how do you? How do you serve that area, like it's even hard to talk to you because that talk about because it's like, we just want to hate them, but they're people and we need to be able to help and if we're gonna go up river and upstream. And quit pulling people just out of the bottom, we have to address that side of it. There's it's there's generational it there's, there's so much to I'm not the expert on this you guys aren't that's why you're here. So please, enlighten us.

Carrie McManus  28:24  

Well, and I think we know that people who use abuse, and we use that language really, really purposefully of not talking about perpetrators, but people who use abuse are complex humans the same as all of us are. And so by using that language, we recognize the complexity of, of people and their experiences and what leads people to the places that they're in, and what supports we need moving out of that. And so one of the things that we often talk about is that our prevention work really is, is partially about preventing violence, but it's also about preventing opportunities where people, that's the that's the only way that they can see the only path that they can see to get their needs met or to have the this this experience that they're needing, right.  

And so I think our prevention work does a lot of work in that area. There's not a lot unfortunately, currently available for people who are using abuse. It's something that we have not done in the past, we're continuing to look at how do we do that better? And how do we create those opportunities and not have a system where we ever have to turn someone away? And really focusing on again, as Andrea mentioned, most people are going to talk to their friends and family first. And we know that and so how do we work with those friends and family of people who are using abuse? Because we know that they're there. We know that they exist. People don't live in an island. They're not all on their own. And so how do we connect with those friends and family and say, How are you supporting somebody? How are you holding them accountable, but also allowing them to see their opportunities for growth and vulnerability? And they're there needs have different ways of having their needs met than by using coercive and controlling behaviors. And

Andrea Silverstone  30:07  

work with partner agencies who do offer programs. Okay, those who are using abuse, and some of them are focused on men who are using abuse, some are focused on men's mental health, some are focused in are called perpetrator programs that are non gendered. But I think for us, the really important thing is to start from the place which, which is where you started, which is, they're human beings. Most people who use violence don't want to, and how to, they want healthy, peaceful, respectful, connected relationships, like everybody else does. And so how can we help everybody they get to that point,

Deena Kordt  30:50  

I am really intrigued with the approach and to talk to their families to talk to their support systems, I think that's brilliant, and very innovative, if I might say, so, Carrie, I'm just so encouraging, because how painful it would be to be part of somebody's family, and you've witnessed their use of abuse. And you don't know how to approach that, how to make them accountable how to have those conversations. I mean, there was someone at an event that I just I mentioned, alluded to it earlier, when I spoke and a gentleman in the audience turned to one of the organizers and said, Oh my god, I recognize my brother in some of those situations. So the awareness might be there. But now, it's amazing that there is actually places that people can now turn to learn how to support someone how to change that. And especially, at least in my heart, if there's children, in those situations, you really are focused on trying to protect them, trying not to visit that on the next generation. So that they're, it's modeled for them that you use abuse to control people or to get what you want, or because you don't know how else what other tools there are. And so if we can help, especially in family situations like that,

Carrie McManus  32:14  

yeah, and I think for so long, or sort of view of perpetration and perpetrators was this, you know, we sort of ignored them or wrote them off. And they're, they're, you know, they're bad people in general. And I think that if you think about the sort of strategy of working with their informal supporters and their friends and their family, and understanding the nuance of the human, it allows for this, you know, you're starting from this totally different place, because you're starting not from your primary experience of this person is the abuse, or the coercion, your primary experiences, all of these other things, and the abusive coercion, you recognize, as one piece of the whole of this person, which allows you, I think, to show up in a totally different way of how you support what that support could look like, and how you engage. And so we're really interested to know, step further into this work around that, and really, really see that, the need for that, because, again, if we're if we're ever going to, I think make a change in the way that we want to, we have to look at different systems and what we've done before and, and, you know, not engaging with perpetrators or engaging with perpetrators from the perspective of you are a perpetrator of this thing. And that makes you that said, it hasn't worked. And we still continue to see that is not working, and people are not getting the safety that they need or getting the their needs met, whatever that is. And so we have to approach that in a different kind of

Deena Kordt  33:46  

way. When you consider this Oh, go ahead, Andrea, I just

Andrea Silverstone  33:50  

want to say and we're also not supporting the victim when we do that, because when we create a binary, and we're like, we'll just leave or he's terrible, or she's terrible. They love that person. They might share children with that person, they might want connection with that person. And so it just alienates the conversation from happening. Instead of understanding that relationships are nuanced. Life is a nuanced people are not binary in the way that we might like them to be. They're more messy than that.

Deena Kordt  34:20  

And considering there's an epidemic, that means if there's an epidemic of victims, there's an .. or for lack of a better word, there's a there's an epidemic of users of abuse. So we can't just ignore that portion of the population and hope this goes away. So by using these innovative approaches to not only try and help educate them, how many have come from situations or culture or whatever it is that's created their pattern of using abuse. That's that's become their norm. And that's their go to and so the Education and the support. And it's just phenomenal that, that there are people creating ways to reach them and help them and support them and change the perspective of everyone else around them that, yes, this person is doing this for a reason. And instead of how could you do that it's what has happened to you. You know, not everything is as it is, as it appears, and everybody has a story. Let's get curious. And instead of judging. Not that we're condoning, obviously, we're not condoning the use of it.

Carrie McManus  35:36  

I think that it's important to be able to hold accountability, and, you know, compassion and empathy and understanding at the same time, right, we can hold someone accountable for their actions, and understand that within their patterns, their history, their their upbringing, you know, mental health, etc, etc, etc. It's the path, it's the path that was available to them, while still saying, can we we want to put you on a different path? If we can, we want to support you to see that there are other options that we have to be able to create those other options for people as well.

Andrea Silverstone  36:19  

And I do just want to reiterate that it is important that people who use violence and abuse do need to be held accountable for their actions.

Deena Kordt  36:27  

Yes, absolutely. It's, it's hard when you've experienced abuse, to, to, you know, hold them accountable where he that's, we can do that. And even if it's somebody that we've loved, or, or do still love, and, you know, in a way, or share children, or whatever that might be, it's very challenging. And but as you get away from it, as you heal, then you the space for compassion grows. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to have the conversation to be balanced enough that, you know, compassion and accountability. But absolutely, we do need to start with supporting the people who are being abused, I feel, at least that's, that's how I feel.  

Now, the real talk, that is incredible, I would encourage everyone to check out the website, all the links will be in the show notes, as well as additional links and links for shelters, as I share in all the hope in hell episodes. And I really encourage people to explore this, let's have these conversations. And if it can be facilitated, and, you know, supported by having suggests come in and, and help to lead this and show you how give you some tools, how to have these real conversations, then make sure and contact these lovely ladies and invite their services to come out to your organization, if you know, that's where it starts. And if you don't know how to start those conversations, there's help.

Andrea Silverstone  38:15

Thank you so much for having us on today. Deena,

Deena Kordt  38:17  

my pleasure, I look forward to having you back again, because I want to dig a little bit deeper into some more specific ways that we can offer people tools and, and give them something to take with them into a situation because if there's an epidemic, I mean, we've heard stats, one in three people are abused sort of isn't in you. It's someone you know. So you more than likely have someone in mind at least one that you would like to be able to support and it might even be yourself. So we're going to be back with even more information and tools for you. Thank you ladies for your time today. I really appreciate it and especially for the work that you're doing in our world.  

Carrie McManus  38:57  

Thank you so much. Okay.  

Deena Kordt  39:00  

I hope you found that conversation helpful, insightful, and something that will inspire you to pause and consider that things are not always the way they appear. Everybody has a story. There's things going on in the lives of the people around you that they may be afraid to talk about or share. Real Talk is a workshop that suggests offers that these ladies feel every Canadian every person should take because those opportunities are going to show themselves and you will start to see where you could have a conversation. So why not feel empowered to have that and learn how to have those tough conversations to even open them up and help people who are in these unsafe situations.  

We really appreciate you being with us today. If you feel that this would help another person please feel free to share that. It's so important for us to get the word out and make a difference for people in in their lives and make our world a safer place for everyone, especially the women and children who are afraid to speak up for themselves. Now, we do also have a survey, please check that the link is in the show notes as all the links are in the show notes for the Sagesse ladies and the programs that they offer.  

And I really I want to hear how I can help you what I can do to bring you the people that you want to hear from, answer the questions that that you have, and find out how we can support you better. Now, there's also a women's support group called Hope in Hell that I host through meetup via zoom, you can join from wherever you are, it's free, anybody can join. It's a place it's a safe place to have some of these tough conversations. And I also welcome you to check that link is also in the show notes for this.  

If you have a story, if you are a victor over violence, and you have a story that you would like to share, in order to inspire and help others, please let me know, I have a few ways that I can share that including on my blogs, as well as a book that I am creating, where it's called Hope in Hell. And it's it's a place where you can share your story where people can read and not feel so alone that we do truly believe them and that we understand.  

All those links are in the show notes. Please reach out. If you want to talk about this. If there is some way that we can help you or you're looking for some resources. Thank you very much for being with me today for spending this time with me and Hey, keep smiling that beautiful smile because the world really does need your sunshine.  

It means a lot that you spend this time with us and meet our experts and professionals who can help you through whatever life changes you're facing. Please refer to our terms of service available on our website lifechangesmag.com The link is in the show notes. Our disclaimer, Divorce Magazine Canada, Life Changes Magazine and Channel and divorce resource groups are intended to educate and provide quality credible resource information. The content should not be used as factual until consultation with the appropriate professionals for any guidance, Divorce Magazine Canada, Life Changes Magazine, Life Changes Channel as well as the divorce resource groups do not constitute endorsements for nor liability for any claims made in the presenting of this information.