With Mr. Jay

Mr. Jay is a Betrayal Trauma Practitioner and Intrapersonal Relationship Coach.  He holds a master's degree in education, is ministry credentialed, a certified special education teacher, an author of a children's book, “I Am Loved Right Where I Am, a Betrayal Trauma healing journal, "From Tears To Transformation", a veteran of the United States military, an Inspirational public speaker, adoptive parent and much more.  

 Mr. Jay learned, and stands by his motto, “The Relationship You Have With Yourself Sets the Tone and Standard for All Other Relationships Around You" and says, "Relationships can break you but even broken crayons can create beautiful masterpieces.

For more information, you can find Mr. Jay online @ mrjayrelationshipcoach.com

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Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.
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Transcript:

Deena Kordt  0:00  

Life comes with many changes. Some are expected. Some are unexpected, some positive, some challenging, but you don't have to navigate them alone. There are people who care and want to help. You're in the right place because I'm here to connect you with them.  

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Hi, I'm Deena Kordt, an author, blogger, publisher, and empowerment coach. Thank you for joining me today on the life changes channel podcast, where we'll cover topics around life changes that you might be facing in your career in education, health, finances, relationships, parenting, aging, real estate, lifestyle, loss, and personal growth. This show started out as the Divorce Magazine Canada podcast, but so much of the content could also apply, even if you aren't dealing with a divorce or separation. So now it's Life Changes Channel, there will still be lots of information to support you or someone you care about who is dealing with divorce or separation. I encourage you to go back and meet all the incredible guests in the earlier episodes. There is so much gold there.  

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I've got a real treat for you today. Mr. Jay is a relationship coach. He's also a certified betrayal trauma practitioner. Now when you talk about trauma and relationships, this guy's the expert. He has some amazing example stories for you some really great concepts to consider when you are in a relationship and you want to improve it or you have some concerns. Wow, so much gold here. Let's jump right in and talk to him now.  

Hello, Mr. Jay. Thank you for joining me today. Oh, that was a poem. Oh, that's really fun. Okay, so Mr. Jay you are coming to us from somewhere in New York, and or near the state of Yew Nork, New York. Okay, that's a funny story. My dad used to always tease my kids when they were growing up. And he'd switched those first letters. So we had this little running joke, because they had you Yew Nork stuck in their heads for the longest time. And I just did it on Oh my god. Cute.  

So you do work with so many different people related to trauma and betrayal. So that really fits the audience that I that I have listening to the podcast around divorce and separation. And, you know, maybe they've lived it as a child and they also experienced it as an adult, they may be at a contemplation stage, they may be dealing with some infidelities and betrayal in that way. And a lot of that has grief and trauma attached. And so I'm really excited to hear what you can tell us about that. But first, I'd like to hear more about who you are. And, and the why behind the work that you do.

Mr. Jay  4:02  

Yeah, well, you know, thank you, thank you for that. And I appreciate that. Um, you know, so I am Mr. Jay. I am, let's see, I'm a veteran and an author, and all kinds of stuff. But most importantly, I have a lot of lived experience with betrayal and trauma. And I tell people all the time, it's wisdom born from pain. I think not only did I do, you know, a lot of studying in the field of trauma and betrayal, but also, you know, there's nothing like firsthand experience. If you're talking to a female, let's just say who lost a child, and they're talking to somebody else who didn't lose a child. They can do all the head nods and shaking and understand and I hear you, but it's a completely different energy if they're talking to another female that lost a baby. And a lot of times when I'm talking to A couple let's just say who experienced partner betrayal. A lot of times they just want to know, does somebody get it? Does somebody understand the hell I'm currently going through. And that oftentimes really just jump starts the healing process within them in the relationship. But long story short, I was a coach for a long time. And I had my father that I was very close with, he abruptly died, I'm going to try to quickly go through the story, he abruptly died. And when I mean abruptly, I mean, I was talking to him on the phone laughing, telling jokes, and four days later when he was lowered into the ground. And so a couple days later, I had my first panic attack. And I am sure a lot of your listeners have had panic attacks. I never experienced a panic attack before this. I used to not understand the gravity of them. And boy, they feel like you're like they're real. And so I got up from my panic attack was about three o'clock in the morning. And I smelled smoke. And I jumped up and I'm going through my house, I have two young children.  

So I mean, of course, I'm, I'm I want to protect them. So I go in my kitchen, I go in my living room, I go to my son porch, I even opened up my door to go outside and there's I smell, no smoke, there's no smoke anywhere. But I swear I smelled smoke. Anyways, I went back to bed. And as soon as my head hit the pillow, I was transported back to when I was six years old standing next to my mother as she was wailing, because our house caught on fire. And when we pulled into the driveway, all that was there with our chimney. And so my body was what was coming up was unprocessed, unhealed childhood trauma that I never dealt with. And by association, this was being brought up, which is why I tell a lot of people. In my opinion, anytime we're dealing with current trauma, we're dealing with about 40% of what's present, and 60%, of the association with our core insecurities.

Deena Kordt  7:02  

Fascinating. It didn't make sense when you when you say that right away a person thinks of, you know, what is one of the most recent trauma situations that we've experienced? And, yes, that was impacted by by experiences before that, and trauma that has happened prior. And maybe we didn't even recognize it, like your example, until we're put in a present situation.

Mr. Jay  7:29  

Yeah, so our current trauma wakes up the sleeping giant of our unhealed childhood trauma or previous childhood trauma. Now, I don't want to paint a brush and say everybody had childhood trauma. But I would say the majority of people experienced some type of trauma in their life, whether it was a little tea, or the big tea to some degree. And a lot of it unfortunately, was not dealt with for various reasons. So, you know, this is one of the reasons why when I'm working with some couples or individuals, I want to isolate what what did your betrayal What did your trauma say about you? Because I'll give you a perfect example. If I'm talking to a couple of let's just say a male, female couple, and they're in my session, and the one of the wife will say to the husband, I can't believe you did this to me, Do you think I'm that ugly? And the next couple, the female might say, or the husband, whatever, I can't believe you did that to me. Do you think I'm that insignificant? Well, those are core insecurities. One has a core insecurity of feeling ugly. Another one has a core insecurity of feeling insignificant, that's going to play a role in what the current trauma did to them.

Deena Kordt  8:39  

Yes, that makes sense. And it's a very clear picture of what the wound is that's been opened up or, or is now being magnified by the present trauma. And that insecurity has come from somewhere and it gives you gives you a direction for where to, to lead them to try and explore that and heal it.

Mr. Jay  9:04  

Absolutely. And you know, trauma is very complex. It's multi layered. You know, my specialty, isn't divorced, per se, but I will tell you this, not only after a divorce, are you dealing with any trauma within the marriage, but now you're also dealing with the betrayal from yourself. Have you know, well, first of all, we all have I don't know if you're familiar with betrayal, blindness, which I explained, and I'd like to hear more. Okay, well, basically, let me just say this very quickly. Betrayal, blindness is this it is a part of our parasympathetic part of our nervous system fight flight, which was also freeze fawn, and I added another F, which is F it sometimes.

Deena Kordt  9:46  

I love it. I added another one figure it out. There you

Mr. Jay  9:49  

go. Yeah. So there's Okay. Wonderful. It's six. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So, betrayal. Blindness is like this. I don't know if you're familiar. Story of Red Riding Hood. But you know, she wanted she loved to go see her grandmother. But let's just say there was COVID lockdown. So she was home and she couldn't go visit her grandmother. But she wanted to desperately so bad. Well, then after three or four months, whatever it was six months to COVID restrictions were lifted, and she can go see her grandmother, she's blinded by her grandmother. She wants to go see her. So she makes oatmeal cookies and banana bread. And she goes to the, you know, treacherous, scary forest. And the second she knocks on her grandmother's cottage, something within her feels off. Something doesn't feel right, because usually her grandmother would respond in a certain way. And she didn't get that something was off. But she wants to see her grandmother so bad. She doesn't care if she ignores it. She goes in the house, Grandma, grandma, grandma doesn't answer. She goes in the back room. Immediately she feels something's off something is wrong. Does she turn around and leave? No, she doesn't because she wants to believe I'm seeing my grandma. To the point where she even says, Grandma, why do you have beady eyes, sharp teeth and a long nose. She knew something was off. But yet she ignored her intuition. She she suppressed it. She repressed it because betrayal blindness kicked in. She wanted to see her grandmother. And it happened to the point where it was at her demise. The wolf ate her and she died. So this is the similar thing of this.  

How many times I can't tell you how many times I'm talking to somebody. And they'll say, Why was I so stupid? I can't believe I was so blind. I found hair in the car. I found the lipstick in the glove compartment. Why was I so stupid. You're not stupid. That's betrayal blindness, it was actually your body protecting you believe it or not. So you're not stupid. Now, betrayal. Blindness is both a blessing and a curse. Because betrayal, blindness keeps us from hurting initially. But what happens is that the day comes where the bomb does go off, and we discover whatever happens is a reality. And now not only we have to deal with the trauma that was presented to us, we also now have to work on the relationship we have with ourselves because we detach ourselves from ourselves in order not to see the the reality of what was real. So it's very complex.

Deena Kordt  12:12  

It's a form of denial. And I thank you for sharing that story. Because it helps take a complex story and draw a very vivid picture in our minds and a story that we can remember. And now see it as a way of of, of perspective on how we are in denial sometimes and are probably pretty often ignore our instincts. And that betrayal blindness. Very interesting.

Mr. Jay  12:38  

Yeah, yeah, I'm full of stories and analogies. So I gotta give you some more. Well,

Deena Kordt  12:44  

good. You've written some books as well. We'll talk about those at some point.

Mr. Jay  12:49  

Yeah, you know, one of the things I just want to tell you is one of the difference between trauma and betrayal, trauma is the attachment that goes with it. Like, for instance, trauma, obviously, is how our body deals with something that's overwhelming. Betrayal, trauma is our body dealing with something overwhelming at the hands of a primary attachment. So betrayal, trauma can come from a parent, a boss, certainly a significant other. And I'm going to give you so so my my definition of betrayal, trauma is life altering powerlessness, at the hands of a primary attachment. Now, let me give you an example of what betrayal trauma is. I want you to imagine for a second there's a very thin bridge a mile above ground, okay. And under that ground, under that bridge a mile down is intense fire and volcano, intense fire and volcano. And you are at the beginning of the bridge. And let's just say you have two young children, you have one child and this arm, one child in this arm, and you need to get to safety on the other side of that bridge. Okay, who's leading you is the person that you love and trust the most in life, whoever that is, that's the person leading you. And they're like, Come on, I'm gonna lead you to safety. And so you got your two young kids in your hands, and you're walking but the smoke from the billowing fire and volcano is so thick, it often blinds your eyes to where you just have to put your hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you, whoever that is that you love and trust the most for them to guide you. And so you're walking and all of a sudden out of nowhere, that bridge collapses. You are falling with your children and your hand. Your your mind is hijacked. You're scared, you're mad, you know you're going to fall into this pit of doom. And while you're falling you look up and the person you loved and trusted the most was holding the hammer. They collapse the bridge and then you fall and you don't die. That's where I come in. But that's betrayal trauma.

Deena Kordt  15:04  

That's pretty life shattering. Yes. That's betrayal altering? Yes. And that's a very clear picture. Because, like you say, there's a difference between trauma and betrayal trauma, and that in that person holding the hammer is the betrayal in that trust that you had.

Mr. Jay  15:24  

Yeah. And if I may, you know, another thing that's different about betrayal, trauma, rather than trauma is, let's just say, God forbid, your your parent passes away. Okay, that can be traumatic, that's traumatic, but you call your job, and they give you you know, four days a week off of bereavement time, your your co workers, you know, come and bring you meals, your friends go to the funeral. That's trauma, but it's shared support. There's no such thing as calling your job and saying Is there a broken heart time off? I just found out my spouse was cheating on me. So it's a secret society, you have to deal with this alone a lot of times, and if you want to share it with people, you're opening yourself to shame, guilt, embarrassment. And if you want to tell your boss that you need time off, why do you need time off? Well, I was cheated on that doesn't feel good. And then if they're given time off, there's no such thing as broken heart time off. So now you're taking time off that you need to heal. It's a secret society of somebody living in hell, it's much different from trauma in general.

Deena Kordt  16:28  

Well, in it impacts your mental health. So they may be taking mental health time. And even that has its own stigma. So there isn't, yeah, it's a secret club. You're right. And it's the entrance is the shame, guilt and embarrassment and, and, unfortunately, that is the general atmosphere in that club. How do we deal with those emotions that accompany this trauma, this betrayal and this trauma? How, how would you guide someone to deal with emotions? They're, they're very, very. They can be paralyzing in a lot of ways, as well.

Mr. Jay  17:14  

Most definitely. Okay, so are you talking about the hour after discovery? I'm about two months in two years in,

Deena Kordt  17:22  

take us through a bit of that process. Okay. Okay.

Mr. Jay  17:25  

So when you discover, you know, the hair and the seat and the lipstick, and you know, the aha moment comes in. There's, there's what's called Primal panic. So I don't know if you've ever watched a nature show Discovery show, where they'll take like a baby monkey away from its mother, the baby monkey goes spastic, it goes spastic, because it's all it wants to do. All it wants to do is get attached back to his mother, it will bite, cry, scream, whatever it does, it wants to go back to its mother. And that's what our brain is doing. When we find that our spouse betrayed us or a betrayal, we want to get back connected. But it confuses us, because the very person who we feel the safest with hurt us in the most deepest way. So our brain is hijacked. And we're confused, which is oftentimes, and I know I'm kind of going on. So hopefully, you know, you can stay with me for a second. One of the things that the brain does actually, I don't know if you're familiar with this term, it's called Well, I call it hyper-bonding. It's actually that's not the that's not the real term. I call it hyper-bonding, because I don't like the real term. It's hyper, I'll think about in a minute, and I'll tell you, but basically, what happens is right after somebody finds out especially a spousal betrayal, their libido skyrockets, which is counterintuitive. Yeah. And you're thinking, Oh, my God, they must be disgusted. No. Well, they are. But what happens is that we have this biological need to reconnect and reclaim. So what do we do? We want to connect on that level. So a lot of people will come to me and say, I should want I should want to murder my spouse, I should be disgusted with them. But we have sex four times a day, like we're, you know, young again, why is that? Well, that's hyper bonding. It's not called hyper bonding. I forgot that. It'll come to me and I'll share that with you. Okay, so one of the first things that somebody has to do is immediately immediately and I know this is very cliche, is ground yourself, okay? You're not in any immediate, imminent physical danger, aside from STDs, which I'll get into in a second. So you know, you have to picture this, the minute you discover there's a bit of a partner to betrayal. It's like you are in a small, locked room with a wild Hungry Tiger. You're like in fear. You can't relax. There's no This thing is relaxing, you have a wild hungry tiger in your room. So one of the things that you need to tell yourself is okay, there's not a wild hungry tiger in our room, I have to I have to ground myself, there's a ton of grounding techniques, oh my gosh, from tapping to one of my favorite wants to be honest with you, is to throw out math facts. And here's the reason why, when our amygdala takes over, it completely crowds out our PFC, our prefrontal cortex, our prefrontal cortex is the logic side of the brain. Once the amygdala takes over, it's all emotion. But if we can tap back into our logic side and have that override the amygdala, now we can think more logically.  

So one of the things that I tell people to do immediately, especially if you get a trigger, and I'm sure we've all heard of triggers, you know, especially after trauma and divorce, is immediately start spouting out math facts, eight times eight is 6410, plus five is 1515, minus five is 10. And the more the more you increase the difficulty of the math, the more you're engaging logic, the more that will center you and ground you. So there's a lot of grounding techniques to do that. The nother thing that I have people do is write a needs assessment. And this is your safety list. Okay? So and everybody's just gonna look different, because everybody's circumstances are different. So let's just say that there's somebody that has two young kids, right? So they, they're their needs assessment, their safety assessment would be okay, I need three restaurants where I can just pick up the phone and call and within 20 minutes, they'll deliver food, because I have kids, they can't starve. But when I'm in a fetal position, crying because I can't get out of bed, I still got to feed my kids, and I can't think of, you know, making dinner who can I call? So I need a list when I'm thinking logically so that when I'm thinking illogically, I can go to my list, who are three people I can call in the middle of the night, they're not going to ask me any questions. They're just going to let me center cry, who are three people, I can call that that can just pray with me if I need prayer, if you're somebody that needs prayer, what are three movies shows, comedy central accommodate things that I can watch that are not going to make me laugh, but they're just going to maybe for a millisecond, take my mind off the hell I'm living in.  

So it's just you're you're a safety list that you can write down when you're thinking logically, because when you're thinking illogically, you still need to go on with life. But you can't think logically. So you want to go to this list, who are two or three people that I can call on a moment's notice that Oh, come take my kids, so I can go out in the car and scream and punch the steering wheel. So things like that. Okay, then as we grow, then as we heal. Now we start getting into, okay, let's see, is there any of your previous traumas we need to start looking into why is this trauma causing you so much grief and anger and anxiety, also, teaching people that anger is, is the bodyguard to sadness. So when you get angry, let's dip into your sadness. And you're just going through the hole. And then when I you know, get to a little bit more on the spectrum than I do, and this is a while this is a while into the healing, we start going into what I call the blessings of the lessons. Now, that doesn't mean those blessings for being cheated on at all. It just means the blessings of the lessons. So I talked to people who, you know what, Mr. Jay, I used to have a fear attachment. Now I have a confidence, secure attachment, because I got to know who I was, while I was healing. That's a blessing from the lesson. Through this lesson, I wrote a book. That's a blessing of the lesson. Through this lesson, I realized I always wanted to travel and now it's a non negotiable, we we empower to trap we implemented travel into our relationship, or if they left they have so there's the blessings of the lessons. And then we you know, so so it's it's it's a timeline, it's a spectrum, and depending on many, many different factors, which could be childhood trauma, which could be resilience is which could be faith, which would be current support, which could be on many things. Your healing could look pretty good, pretty good. anywhere from four months to four years, depending on a myriad factors. I'll stop there, because I can go on for hours.

Deena Kordt  24:29  

Oh, it's this is fascinating stuff. And it's so real. This is information that anyone can relate to, at some point, I'm guessing that we have experienced it might have been a childhood friendship, it may have been a relationship. It may have been where a parent has, you know, I've even experienced that betrayal type of a relationship. We hope we aren't the perpetrator. But, you know, in all honesty, some of us can look at times when we've made he'd done that and whether it was intentional or not, and had to, had to witness how that has maybe hurt someone else. So to understand these tools, and timeline to it, it's not linear, I'm guessing it's like grief, not linear. It could be like you say, four months, it could be four years, it could be some back and forth, where some days are a lot better than others. And I think that's really, really important. And this is, it's very relatable to people to hear that they aren't alone. And, you know, the biggest motive I have is for people to understand they aren't alone, that others have experienced it, others care, others want to help them and support them. So this information is is very valuable. And then we're looking at kind of more of the final stages of of healing. Take us through that a bit.

Mr. Jay  25:53  

Yeah, so one of the things that is, is is difficult throughout the process is that when you are healing, many things around you are changing. So for instance, you realize as you're healing, you may not talk to the same people you did. Because the friends that were in your life only only met the the needs of your broken self. Now you ever healed self, and they don't drive anymore. And that's a blessing. But it's also sad, because you still have friends. So there's a lot of confusing things that come with us. One of the things that I tell people often is that healing, when you get to, you know more on the spectrum, stage four is, it's like this, when you move, you move into a new apartment, right or a new house. And you know, you're not fully moved in yet. You're not fully unpacked. But you brought what you needed to bring, and you can see a future ahead of you in this house. There's things that you left at the old apartment, there's things that you left at the old place, because they don't serve you anymore. You don't need them anymore. And that's what happens when you're healing is there's a lot of things that you're going to leave behind friends, family members, behaviors, boundaries, non negotiables, you name it, they don't serve you anymore. And those are difficult. Those are difficult, because it's like you are a caterpillar coming out of a cocoon. It's like cheese, my old self completely died. And here is this new self. And yes, I love my new self. And I'm working to my new self and, and I'm growing. But I kind of sometimes I miss my Caterpillar life, you know. So it comes with a lot of confusion, this whole thing, it absolutely comes with a lot of confusion.  

But one of the things as you're healing is you have to start working on boundaries. And one of the things that I tell people because they're like, Well, how do I even begin to work on boundaries. But again, you need to do a value assessment, what are your values? What are your values, if your value is dedication, if you're, let's just say you're always on time, and it's very important that people in your inner circle be on time, you turn that into a boundary, listen, you can do whatever anybody can do whatever they want, because boundaries are like religion, they're not meant to control other people, but they're there to control us. So anybody can do whatever they want. But if you want to be in my intimate inner circle, I would like you to be on time. That's important to me, that's a boundary to mine. So you have to do a values assessment to see what you value, and then turn that into a boundary. And then as you're growing, you're learning not only what your boundaries are, but how to enforce your boundary. And then what happens. See, I'm going to tell you another thing, too. That's exciting to me. So many times, I'll be talking to somebody and they'll tell me, well, that's just who I am. Well, that's just who I am. And after I do some work with them, and I find out that they had a lot of dysfunction, or toxicity or trauma or what have you betrayal, they had to put on armor to keep themselves safe. As they grew up, and they didn't deal with that armor, that armor morphed into their body. And now, what they're doing is they're presenting a personality with that armor attached. And I'll say that's not who you are. That's who you've become based on your own healing. Let you don't need that armor anymore. Let's take that armor off. And then that's not who you are. You're a completely different person with that armor off. People don't even realize they're holding on to this armor.

Deena Kordt  29:48  

Well in the permission that you would feel the space you would be able to breathe in to allow yourself to now explore Well, who am I and who am I? Who do I want to be? And can I can I let that go. And it's kind of like shedding that cocoon in a way. And moving on and I, I feel when you let something go, then it allows space for what what aligns and what fits with where you where you want to be, or, or where you

Mr. Jay  30:16  

are 100%. If we have a five pound tumor in our body, and it's moving our heart out of the way, remove the tumor, our heart can go back where it's supposed to go and in place, which that's a good segue of letting things go. One of the things with trauma and betrayal is forgiveness. And Ooh, is this a big pill to swallow? So I just want to say a couple of quick things. And if you want to dig deeper, we can but I just want to say this. Number one, I want to say anytime our mission is to forgive, we need to tell ourselves that shouldn't be my mission. My mission is to heal and heal completely. Because once we do that, Forgiveness comes organically. That's number one. Number two, you have to define forgiveness, what it is, what does it mean to you? Because if you ask 15 Different people what forgiveness means you're gonna get 15 different responses, you have to define what forgiveness is for you. After all, how can you give somebody something you don't know you're giving what it is you're giving? Number three, you have to start with yourself, forgive yourself. You can't it's very difficult to give something to others that you don't possess yourself, you have to get it. Now people listening might be like, Well, wait a minute, I'm not going to forgive myself for being betrayed. No, no, but can you forgive yourself for believing the lies that your mother told you? You were ugly? Can you believe yourself for? Can you forgive yourself for ignoring your intuition when it was screaming at you, so you have to forgive yourself first. The second thing I want you to do is empower yourself by telling yourself, I have the choice to forgive or not, I have the choice. Because when you were betrayed, you were robbed of your choices. So I want you to give yourself that choice. I'm choosing to forgive, and who are you forgiving for? You're not forgiving for the other person, you're giving yourself the gift of forgiveness. So it's a choice. So I just wanted to mention a couple of things on forgiveness. And the other thing too is ask yourself in general, am I am I the kind of person who get forgives? You know what kind of a good person, I'm a decent person. And I love myself, Yes, I'm gonna forgive because because I'll tell you something. unforgiveness breeds resentment and resentment corrodes its container, what you have to do is cut the toxic ties that you have attached with that person doesn't necessarily mean you have to cut the ties with the person, especially if you're reconciling in your marriage or your relationship, but cut the ties to that toxicity.  

Then we go into, and then forgiveness also goes towards, you know, compassion, you know, can I find any? Compassion? Not for what? Okay, so they, they needed validation. That's why they went out and had an affair. Well, why did they need validation, because they were constantly told when they were younger, they were worthless, or if they didn't bring home in a in a report card. You know, everything was based on, you know, anything outside of them, not internally. And again, I'm not trying to at all, justify rationalize, excuse away any cheating behavior. Because I tell people all the time, unless you have a gun to your head, Nobody forces you to go have an affair period end up just, I don't care if you're with somebody who gained 600 pounds has one tooth abuses your kids and hit you upside the head with a pan every other Wednesday, you still made the choice to step out of the relationship period. Because everything that I just said our relationship issues, you decided to take something out of the relationship. But if we want to get into that forgiveness mode, especially if we're reconciling, then it would help to start looking into is there a possibility I can have compassion for what led them to make the decisions that they did? One of the things that I try and tell the people all the time is this, can you turn to your spouse and tell them I'm very sorry, I did not have the tools and the strength to protect you from my brokenness because that's what a lot of cheating is. Now listen, when we're on the other end of cheating, oh my god worth Oh, he just wanted his you know, cake and eat it too. And you know, he's this and he's that and the reality is cheating is not about sex at all. It's about filling a lack and a void within. It has nothing to do at all with the person. Listen, I work with top models who are flawless. It has nothing to do with looks and waist size and breast size and lips and it's about somebody needed a drug Take away the wound inside.

Deena Kordt  35:05  

I am so happy that you've touched on. So, so many very, very important. Oh, I got to unpack this Mr Jay. So I want to get back to boundaries, because I'm gonna, I need I struggle with those. So I want to talk about those. But they were on reconciliation and forgiveness right now. And the tools that you've given us and the perspective that we can look at situations in a different way, I think are so just, they're phenomenal. And as much as I work in this arena now and hear different ideas around this, yours are very, I like they're fresh, they're clear. They're very understandable. And I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. Can you tell us a bit more about reconciling? Because that is like I'll full transparency I any of my friends know that I've said my partner knows to like, there's that's a hard no, there's no, like if there was ever infidelity, there'd be zero chance I would consider reconciling. But yet I hear from certain therapists and, and different practitioners that some of the best marriages they see now are ones who have come through that and reconciled. So convince me.

Mr. Jay  36:24  

Yeah, I'll tell you something. There's a book out there. And I can't tell you the name of it, because I forgot it. But it's something about the best gift my husband ever gave me was for my wife. The best gift my husband ever gave me was infidelity. And you're looking at this title thinking you are on something. But basically, I'm going to tell you something, I get what she's saying being I'm being in my chair. Because I tell people all the time. infidelity in a relationship is like a heart attack for the couple. Oftentimes, when you're talking to somebody who had a heart attack two years later, they're in the best shape of their life. They're eating well, they're doing meditations, they're appreciative. They live life to the fullest. And they said, I I didn't like who I was before my heart attack, I realized I have a lot of work to do. And now that heart attack, I would never wish it on my worst enemy. I would not want to go through it again. But boy, am I glad it happened. That's similar to infidelity. A couple, like a wake up call. It's a wake up call, because I'm going to tell you something. What a lot of people don't realize is this, okay? If you have a car, okay, and the brakes are going and you're tying your muffler up with a coat hanger, because the muffler is hanging off. And it's leaking gas. And the air conditioner doesn't work and it's in the summer, and one of your headlights is out. Okay? The car can still bring you to your job, the circuit car can still bring it to the hospital if you knew the car is still drivable. Now all the sudden your spouse takes that car, your partner, your significant other, and rams the car into the tree. Okay, the focus now is we can't drive we don't have a car. We don't have a car. You took the car and you rammed it into the tree. We don't have a car now. And let me tell you something. Absolutely. You can't do things now. Because there's no car, you can't do things. And that's frustrating. And that's infuriating, and they completely abrupted your life. But what a lot of people don't realize is Wait a minute, the car had a lot of issues before. Now that's not a reason to take the car and smash it. But this is a good wake up call for everyone.  

And I want to be very clear. No one, no one, no one has any responsibility in their partner stepping outside the relationship. No one at all period. But I do want us to take a look at how we presented ourselves in the relationship. How did we show up in the relationship and listen, even if that means I denied my own boundaries? Wonderful. But let's look at something because because you know the car had some issues before it crashed. Again, I don't want to put any responsibility on anyone that that did not step out of the relationship because they had nothing to do with it at all. I tell people all the time. Listen, if there's a gun right now, if there is a gun right now in your kitchen, on the counter, and it's just laying there and nobody's around it. Is anybody in danger? No, no, nobody's in danger. The gun sitting on the corner. If you have a loaded gun on the counter, and it's sitting there is anybody in danger. If nobody picks it up, nobody's in danger. The only time that that loaded On isn't dangerous when somebody chooses to pick it up and pull the trigger and fire. So this is what I mean, your spouse could have contributed or contaminated the relationship horribly, horribly, they could have been mean, they could have been mean to the kids, they could have gained weight they could have, they could have ignored you, whatever. But you still chose to pick up that gun, aim it and fire. So I don't want to put any responsibility on anyone that didn't step out. But I do want you to ask yourself and do a self audit of how what could I do to prevent this possible heart attack in the future? Even if that means you could have done nothing in the relationship? But did I ignore my own boundaries? Did I not speak up? When I should have spoke up? Did I you know, so whatever. So I want everybody to learn how they can be better in a relationship but absolutely takes zero responsibility for their spouse stepping out period in any way, shape, or form.

Deena Kordt  41:05  

That's the route I was hoping you were going to go down and give us some information so that we can recognize the the brakes that are, you know, the brake line is, is shredded, and that the AC needs more Freon and the data but how do we recognize that in our relationships, so we can preempt and be proactive and avoid that crash into the tree?

Mr. Jay  41:33  

Okay, a couple of things I just want to say first and foremost is know your and your spouse's love language. And if so nobody's familiar with that you can Google it. There's five basic love languages. And I can't tell you how many times I'm talking to a couple. And one will tell me oh my god, you know, he or she comes home from work. I'm sitting on the couch. I'm so excited that that they're going to sit with me and we're going to talk and they come in to start doing the dishes. I feel so unloved. And the other one is sitting here surprising. I come in doing the dishes because I know you're home with the kids all the time. So I want to show you love by doing the dishes. They both have good intentions, wrong love language. So get to know your love language, your your spouse, your partner's love language, your spouse significant other and start speaking that. Number two, know your attachment style. Know your attachment style and know your spot.

Deena Kordt  42:35  

Oh, you froze there for a minute. Hopefully it's coming back. I don't know if you can hear me.

Mr. Jay  42:43  

Or three. Listen, variety is the spice of life. And I say couples really, really, really, if you are not actively proactively doing things to bring you together. Life just tears you apart. We get together in a relationship and you know what happens? Our boss wants more out of us. So we're stretched, then our kids want more out of us. So we're stretched, then we go to church on Sunday, our pastor wants more of us we're stretched, then we no matter what we do, and you know who suffers the one who we always think is going to be there, our partner, our spouse, so we start neglecting them. That causes a wedge that causes a disconnect that causes a division. And I'll tell you something, once the division already starts. It's much easier for that division just to continue. And once you start that division, guess what? Your coworker starts giving you a little more attention. You're like, Well, I haven't had attention and so long, what's your name? What are you into, we get into some hairy situations. So one of the things that you have to do is you have to prioritize date nights with your spouse. Now that could mean a two week getaway to Hawaii. That can mean two minutes of what did I do today that made you feel safe? What could I do tomorrow to make you feel loved that you want to share anything like you need to connect? You know how many couples I talked to that their kids go off to school, and they're sitting on the couch opposite ends and they look at each other and they're like, who are you? Who am I married to? Yeah. Listen, I tell people all the time. We are far more than human beings. We're human involvements. Are you the same? Deena you were five years ago? No. Are you going to be the same Deena today than you are five years from now? No, you are evolving. So your spouse, your significant other your your, your your partner? They need to continually build bridges to who this new person is. Just like you need to do the same with them. Because if not, you'll outgrow each other. And next thing you know, your coworker is like, Hey, what are you into? I'm into hiking. My spouse doesn't know that because they never asked let's go hiking together you get into some dangerous zones. So communication, and variety is absolutely paramount.

Deena Kordt  44:59  

So I'm gonna get you just two, or I will list those back because the video froze briefly. And sorry. And at the end of number two. So number one is learn your love languages. Number two, learn your attachment styles. Number three, stay connected and in communication with each other, would you say that that's

Mr. Jay  45:20  

Yes, but But by doing a variety of things, like for instance, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you something that I do. And this is one of many things I do, I'm a very creative person, I have a theatre background. So throughout the day, I'll just, you know, observe my spouse. And if there's something that was fun, or exciting or nice, I wrote it on a piece of paper. And we each have a tissue box on our n stands, and we just put it in the tissue box, at night, or once every other day, or once a week, whenever we have time. Because sometimes life gets ahead of us, we take out that thing. And it'll say, today, when you were tickling our daughter, and she was laughing, I just sat there and looked at you both and that warmed my heart. And we have a little mini discussion, wonderful we connected. So sometimes just implementing these little treasure troves that don't take much time at all, but they really connect you, they really connect you, you know, with your partner or spouse, that's beautiful,

Deena Kordt  46:13  

and so encouraging, and so doable. And if you make it a priority, that your relationship, you, you feel like maybe you've been drifting, something could be better, you have noticed a few little, you know, things that your instincts tweak on and you you're a little afraid that, that, you know, it could go south. And it might be you, it might be your partner, you don't know, now on boundaries, just, you know, oh, my gosh, I could just talk to you all day, this is so interesting, and the way you draw this for us, so that we can really relate. And it sticks in our mind, it's fun. And but it's very real. And, you know, as much as we're talking about trauma and betrayal, it's encouraging to know that, whatever we've been through that, whether it's from our childhood, or currently, that we can heal, that we can get past it, that we can look at it, and that it, you know, it's part of our our life story. Now, I just want to touch again, at the end here on boundaries. And that is something I struggle with, as I just think I always have. And I also come from 30 years of an abusive situation, where I struggled with trying to make sure I did everything right. So there'd be no nothing to trigger this person, and also also trying to be invisible, and you know, that arm or that shield, and I've really struggled to try and you know, like this is big for me to be this visible and to be, you know, on the podcast and on and speaking and that type of thing. So my boundaries, I struggled to acknowledge, to create, acknowledge and communicate. And I also want to speak that you mentioned about resentment, and the resentment prison, we can end up locking ourselves in partly around boundaries and partly around not healing or communicating our needs.

Mr. Jay  48:19  

Yeah, yeah. So a couple quick things. Couple of quick things. First of all, if I may, for one second, I just want to go back to one more tip that I tell couples, as far as connecting, and it's one of my favorites is I tell them before you get out of bed in the morning, or if you work, separate work hours, and you can't get out of bed early in the morning together. Because you know, sometimes one person has to go to work at midnight, and other presidents or whatever, at some point throughout the day, or ideally in the morning, if you get up together, ask your partner, your spouse or significant other, what can I do today to make you have a better day? Then after they answer you strive to make that happen. But then do something in addition to that on your own. So if they tell you, you know what today would really help me out if you could fill the gas tank so I can, you know, mow this Wednesday or whatever. Well, you not only fill the gas tank, but you also then set the table for dinner, you know, whatever if you don't do that, usually. So it's one thing that you ask them, and then one thing on your own, and that just makes people feel like I am the queen or the king of my castle. I am number one when I'm home. I am loved when I'm home. And when you feel that way you have blinders on and you're not looking elsewhere. Not that that's what you need. I'm just saying it does help. Okay,

Deena Kordt  49:37  

I know. Okay, I've got to interrupt here. I suspect that sometimes the answer is I have no idea. I don't know what then just get creative.

Mr. Jay  49:50  

Well, yeah, but first of all, first of all, I would actually lovingly gently encourage them to think of something

Deena Kordt  49:59  

make Okay, yeah, pick somebody

Mr. Jay  50:00  

want me to give you a two minute shoulder massage right now, before we get about how would that help? Do you want me to send you a sexy text on your lunch break? I mean, come on, there's a million things that anybody can do throughout the day to make somebody whatever. And you can even give them some some advice, okay? If you don't know what you know, get, but ideally would come from them. Because this also is a good way for them to feel empowered. And so, you know, for somebody that maybe has trouble with, you know, self confidence, self love, self, whatever it is, this is giving them an opportunity to say, you know, what, I am deserving of a good day, I am deserving of love, this is what you could do to make my day good.

Deena Kordt  50:45  

Okay, so I hope everyone goes and watches the YouTube video of this interview, because I've had so many, what aha moments and like, whoa, that's so cool. And my facial expressions, you can't hear on the audio. So this, that's fascinating how, how that works on both both ways. You know, it gives you an opportunity to show your care, but it also gives them an opportunity to feel worthy of asking for that. And the power that that isn't easy.

Mr. Jay  51:16  

And I'm sorry to interrupt you. But while you are living in a toxic, dysfunctional abusive relationship, you are not only trying to make it better for the other person, but all the while you are dimming your own light. So so so it wasn't doing anybody necessarily any good. And now, and I don't know how long you've been out of that relationship or whatever. But now, you know, a lot of the work you're doing is, you know, okay, how do I find how do I start, you know, how do I heal from this? How do I if it's even in my capacity to forgive with this? And how do I start to apologize to myself for allowing certain things to go on, to disempower me to put myself on the back burner, and this might be a blessing of the lesson is from now on, I vow that I'll never be on anyone's back burner. One of the things I quickly I want to say that I help people to do if, if you can take a pen and paper, and I want you to sit down maybe with some dim, dim light, candles, maybe some nice music or glass of wine if you drink. And if that's a problem, no drink, no alcohol. And I want you to think about your childhood. And I want you to think of a time where maybe it wasn't ideal. Now that could have been seven or eight, or that could have been from 11 to 16. Or it could have been all your childhood, you know, but go back to a time when you didn't feel empowered, you didn't feel love, you didn't feel safe. And I want you to write that little girl or guy is watching that little boy, a letter from the person you are today. And I want you to tell that little child, hey, listen, I see you. I see you. And I was there. I know exactly what you've been through. Because I was you. I was there when this happened. And I want to let you know, I didn't have a voice then. And I'm sorry, I didn't have a voice. But I'm telling you now I have a voice. And I'll never let you feel that way again. You and I are going to heal and we're going to rock this thing called life together. And I want you to write that little girl a note. And then wrapping it up into this is what we're doing starting tomorrow.  

You know, some people even I encourage them to put a picture of their little self on the mirror in the morning when they get up and say, Oh, girl, I got you today. We're going to rock today. Love it, you and I together just to talk to that little girl inside to start the healing process. And the last thing I'll say and I'm so sorry, because I keep going on to 1000 things. Okay, but the things I want to say in terms of reconciliation. It has not been my experience whatsoever. That anything that happened, nothing that it's circumstances don't keep two people apart. The people keep them apart. And this is what this is what I mean. I talked to people who affair partners broke into their house, threw gas on them and lit them on fire. And the wife now has a third degree burn on 90% of her body. But she reconciled with her husband and they're doing fantastic. I'm talking to people who their affair partner shot one lady, and she's just getting you know, she got out of jail and she has permanent damage. Her and her husband are better together. I'm talking to a couple right now where the guy found out all four of his kids are not his biologically they were from an affair she had their together doing wonderful. So what I'm saying is circumstances don't keep people apart. People keep people apart if two people want to do the healing, acknowledge what they brought to the table and want to stay together, how are hell can't separate them. So I just want to say circumstances don't keep people apart, people do.

Deena Kordt  55:15  

Holy moly, those are some pretty, pretty extreme cases that really exemplify what you're saying that if people who have experienced that can work through and, and come together and be stronger than ever, then there's hope for anybody. And I also want to add that I've experienced that it as I'm healing from what I lived, there are times where that toxin spills out on my current healthy relationship. And can can really damage it. And so for myself, I want to practice those those boundaries and that healing, so that I don't continue to carry that forward.

Mr. Jay  56:05  

Absolutely. When you do the work to heal. You're breaking generational curses and generational bonds, because everything has a ripple effect. Our trauma has a ripple effect. And so does our healing. So absolutely. And I'm going to tell you something, the people that stay in relationships, and reconcile providing, providing the other party absolutely gets it owns it shows remorse, does the work consistent whatever. They are heroes to me, because I'm going to tell you something, the easiest thing to do I say Screw you, I'm out of here. And listen, if that's your decision, I respect it. Absolutely. But the people that say you know what? He or she owned their crap. Got to the bottom of it is showing remorse is doing the hard work. And they're consistently showing up making me feel safe, reassuring me understanding their why and letting I'm going to do the work to stay with them. Those are heroes to me, because that's hard work. It is. It is hard work, sleeping with the enemy.

Deena Kordt  57:22  

Yeah. This has just been a phenomenal conversation, I am really lit up with what you've shared and the tools, the hope, the inspiration that you are offering to couples, at whatever stage they could be in, you know, they, especially with that betrayal, that is a wound that is it feels like it's insurmountable unhealable it's going to eat at you your entire rest of your life. And, you know, even if it didn't happen to you, but it's something that happened, you know, prior to you and then you still hold like if all they're capable of that, well, you're already letting it poison. Your relationship with that might be friends up. That could be parents, that could be whatever. But yeah, very, very interesting. It gives us a lot of incentive to try to look at ourselves to heal. I'm just so grateful for all that you've shared. Now. Also, you've written a book and you have a journal, you have some tools for people. And please tell us where we can find you, as well as what you offer.

Mr. Jay  58:38  

So listen, this is what I'll tell you. My website is very easy. It's MrJayrelationshipcoach.com. And yes, I have all kinds of healing products on my website, I have lots of free resources, I have my my daily dose of Vitamin J that I put out every day, what I tell people is this. Even if you never want to see me or hear from me or work with me, wonderful, please visit my website to get these free resources. You deserve it, show yourself some love and give yourself this opportunity. I have a ton of free resources, no strings attached. And that's because I've been in those shoes. And I remember desperately needing help. And everybody wanted some type of money, some type of strings attached. And my model in life is I want to help the broke the broken and the broke down. So that's my model I stayed with. That's I started with that model. I'm gonna die with that model because my wisdom is simply born from pain.

Deena Kordt  59:44  

What a beautiful place to end thank you for your invitation to everyone to access those resources. What a beautiful gift. Appreciate your time today.  

Hopefully you heard something today that helps you where you might be in life? Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social. Know anyone who might find this information helpful. Be a friend and share it. And hey, thank you for hanging out with me today. Keep smiling up beautiful smile. The world needs your sunshine.  

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