With Diana Lowe, KC

The family justice system needs reforming and there are people working hard to make that happen for better outcomes for families and especially children.

Diana Lowe KC joins one of our online divorce resource groups to share more about the reform, or 'reimagining' that she is helping lead. She, along with Justice Rod Jerke, will be a members of the panel for our upcoming Divorce Symposium - our online conference. (See below for detail). They are both part of RFJS (Reforming the Family Justice System) that started in Alberta and is spreading across the country.

Brain Science links: 

How Brains Are Built: The Core Story of Brain Development (4 min) 
Brains: Journey to Resilience (8 min) 
Alberta Family Wellness Initiative
Three Principles to Improve Outcomes for Children and Families, Harvard Center on the Developing Child

Online brain story certification program is available for free, through the Palix Foundation's Alberta Family Wellness Initiative (AFWI). There is alot of important information on brain science and resilience on the AFWI website, including links to the certification: 

- The online Core Story Brain Certification is a free, in-depth course for anyone who wants to learn more about the science of brain development. There are 19 self-paced modules, with videos of more than 30 leading experts in neurobiology and mental health. Registration is at:  https://www.albertafamilywellness.org/training-2

- How Brains are Built: The Core Story of Brain Development (4:05 min video)

https://www.albertafamilywellness.org/resources/watch/how-brains-are-built-core-story-of-brain-development
 

- Brains Journey to Resilience (7:44 min video)

https://www.albertafamilywellness.org/resources/video/brains-journey-to-resilience
 

Other important brain story resources are available on the Harvard Center for the Developing Child, including in particular:

“Three Principles to Improve Outcomes for Children and Families”, Harvard Center on the Developing Child, updated in 2021: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/three-early-childhood-development-principles-improve-child-family-outcomes/

The coParenter platform provides families with a number of tools to help them manage, organize and resolve everyday co-parenting responsibilities, with (or without) the assistance of a coach or mediator. These tools include:

- documented messaging, with a language filter that coaches parents to use appropriate language
- templates and support to create parenting time schedules, which can be incorporated into existing online calendars. This includes regular schedules, vacation schedules and holidays
- tools to reach agreement on issues, activities and schedules
- tracking parenting time
- triage and diagnose issues
- share child-related information
- manage and document expenses

Families can be referred to sign up for coParenter at www.coparenter.com

And another resource that has been piloted in Alberta is a program called "New Ways for Families" (NWFF) which ran a 3-year pilot in Medicine Hat, which was a collaboration between the Ministry of Justice & Solicitor General, legal and social service practitioners and the Court of King's Bench. The case study of this program showed tremendous value in this approach. Online courses are available to learn about the approach and gain the skills to coach families to better approaches: https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/on-demand-courses

Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.
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Hear from our panel of experts on Tuesday, Sept. 26th from 6:30 pm - 9:30 pm (MST).
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Transcript:

Deena Kordt  0:00  

Hey, are you or someone you care about considering dealing with, or been through a divorce or separation? Well, you're in the right place. You don't have to do this alone. There are people who care and want to help. Hi, I'm Deena Kordt, and author, blogger, publisher, and empowerment coach. Thanks for joining me on the Divorce Magazine Canada podcast, you are going to hear from our team of experts and professionals how to navigate this difficult transition in your life easier, more efficiently, and with better outcomes.  

Did you know we host online divorce resource groups that are free to attend, and everyone is welcome. Check out the links in our show notes. And be sure and join us. We love bringing experts to you, please refer to our terms of service available on our website, divorce magazine canada.com. And stay tuned at the end for the legal language. Ready? Here we go.  

We know that the family justice system does need reforming. And there are people in the legal system, including judges and lawyers who are doing great things to reform and reimagine the family justice system to make it better for families and especially for children. And today we have a very special guest coming to you Diana Lowe is a retired lawyer who is very actively working to make changes. And she has been for a while she coordinates all types of different people towards this end to make a difference.  

Now she's actually going to be one of the presenters at the upcoming divorce symposium next week on Tuesday, September the 26th in the evening for three hours from 330, sorry, from three hours from 630 to 930. So 630 9:30pm On Tuesday, September 26. And she is also joined by Justice Rod Jerke, who has such a passion as well to make a difference for families and ultimately for children in the family justice system. Now, if you are interested in our online conference, this symposium that's happening next week on Tuesday, September 26. Those Tickets are available now on Eventbrite. And the link is in our show notes. Let's meet Diana now, as she addresses our online divorce resource group. And these are held every two weeks. So be sure to check those out. Again, all those links are in the show notes.  

Welcome, Diana to our divorce resource group learning. And today we're going to broach the topic of what about the kids. And I have spoken with you and I'm quite fascinated with the work you're doing as well as the experience that you bring to not only divorce and separation and families, but also related to the consideration of children through these processes. And I, from my own experience, my children were adults. So there was even aspects that needed to be considered for independent adults. The please go ahead and and take us away.

Diana Lowe  3:21  

Thank you so much, Deena. Thanks for inviting me to talk with this group and to share really the vision of the reforming Family Justice Initiative around separation and divorce in Alberta, which I would say two is all about the kids. So you've asked the question, What about the kids? It's kind of all about the kids in the final analysis. I am a lawyer by training. I've got in my background, lots of experience in legal practice in law reform and injustice system transformation. And because of that I have been involved in leading an initiative that is reimagining separation and divorce for families. In Alberta. This initiative is called reforming the family justice system, I tend to think of it as reimagining. And I'll just tell you a little bit about that work. There are six co conveners. Really, these are kind of the leaders who are part of some of the big institutions in our society, both in our justice system and beyond, who are welcoming and encouraging this reimagining work to take place. And I think it's really important for folks to know where those those containers come from, because I think it gives us permission to do the kind of deep reimagining of our system that is so important. And so we have co conveners representing the court of Kings bench, the Provincial Court of Alberta, the Law Society of Alberta, the Ministry of Justice, family and community support support services organizations and native counseling service As of Alberta, in addition to those convening organizations, there are hundreds of individuals, organizations and professionals who are engaging in this work with us. We talk about what we're doing in this work in the divorce magazine, you'll find an article near the front of the magazine. And I believe it's pages six, and seven. So you can go there to read a little bit more about it. And I just want you to know that this is work that began in Alberta. But now British Columbia and a number of other provinces are following the work that we're doing in Alberta. And so this is spreading across Canada. And I thank you, Deena, I can see that you're holding up the magazine, I was reaching for mine a few minutes ago and didn't didn't put my fingers on it. So that's great. The work that we're doing, even if you don't already have an attachment to the reforming family justice system initiative, it really involves everyone. whatever stage you're at in your relationship, whether you're already separated from your spouse, or may just be starting to think about this, there are lots of changes that are going to be taking place for you and your family, it's going to include changes in your relationship from being intimate partners to being ex partners. And if you have children to continue to be co parents to your children, whatever their age, and I think it was really relevant when Deena mentioned at the beginning that divorce and separation can occur even when there are adult children. And I know for myself that those adult children are impacted, although perhaps in different ways than young children whose brains are still developing, and they really are experiencing trauma in potentially much more serious way. The role of CO parents is one of the key roles that is going to shape both your future and that of your children. And the impact of separation and divorce on children is really at the heart of the work that we're doing in the RFJ is. And I would say probably at the heart of the work of all of the professionals who work with families in whatever way they do. We're sure that if you were to ask yourselves, what are your hopes and dreams for your family, it will be something like that they have a good life or that they thrive. You want to move forward in a way that supports the well being of you and your children. And none of that changes because of the changes in your relationship. The problem though, is that when you're in the middle of a separation and divorce, there are many challenges and questions that are on your mind. Where will we live? Will the children live with me? How often will I see them? How can we afford to create two households when we were just barely making ends meet before we can talk about anything? So how are we going to raise our children together? I'm angry, I'm hurt. And I feel as though I can't turn to any of our old friends for support. I think I need court orders to make the separation or the divorce legal. How can I navigate the court processes separating and moving out is bad enough. But now she's taking me to court, I am really upset and I am going to fight. These are all typical questions and thoughts that you may be worried about and struggling with as you are dealing with separation and divorce. Now typically, when people are going through separation and divorce, they think that they need to turn to legal processes to deal with these questions. And they'll hear stories about needing to get the toughest lawyer being the first one to get a lawyer how this is going to be a big and important fight that you're going to engage in. What the RFTs initiative is helping people to understand is that while there may be legal aspects that you do need help with, most of what families are dealing with is not actually legal. It's about the social supports that you need. Help with the new relationships that you're creating support to ensure that you and your former spouse can co parent your children together and financial advice and assistance. The challenges may also be legal in nature. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to go to court or that you need to fight. It can be very helpful to seek out the assistance of a lawyer early in the process of family restructuring to help you capture your new arrangements in writing. This will help you to stay on the path of wellbeing for you and your family. And to think about the kinds of lawyers that you need, think about the lawyers who are involved in the divorce magazine, perhaps in our meeting today, lawyers who are part of the RFJ s and who really get the importance of achieving an agreement that will help you to have a good outcome for your family. That is really different from hiring a lawyer with the intention of going to court or helping you to fight about all of the decisions that you and your ex need to deal with. Unfortunately, some family cases are going to end up in court. Sometimes there are decisions that parties just can't agree about, and so a third party decision maker will be essential. There are also some situations that involve safety of parties and their children's such as when violence is occurring, and courts may be needed to assist in an order that will set the rules to ensure safety. Courts will always be available when needed. And courts are always trying to make sure that their processes are more efficient, easier for people to understand, and to ensure that processes help to get decisions made without delays so that people can move forward with their lives. For the most part, though, a courtroom is not a great place to work out the details of family relationships. What I'd like to do today is to spend just a few minutes telling you about a family and the path that they're able to take to achieve the kinds of hopes and dreams that everybody wants for their families. First, though, I'd like to watch a short video that is an introduction to the core story of brain science. This is a four minute video that was created by the Alberta family wellness initiative. It provides important and straightforward information about the importance of early childhood experiences. For healthy lifelong well being. This really is the part that is all about the kids. There's another video that we recommend, in addition to the one that I'm going to show you, it's called brains, the journey to resilience. And I'm going to put the link to both of these into the chat a lot so that you can see that and also find out about resources on the Alberta family wellness initiative. Because there are a lot of free resources about brain science, resilience, and Family Well Being that will be helpful for you. But first, let me just do the sharing of this video. And hopefully, you guys will be able to hear it. That's always the big question when we're doing this. So I'm just going to do the share.

Deena Kordt  11:53  

And I'll just jump in here for our listeners that pick this up on the podcast or website that I will share those links in show notes as well as as in comments below. So they will be able to find these links as well.

Diana Lowe  12:16  

Can you guys hear that?

Deena Kordt  12:21  

Nope, can't hear it.

Dr. Wes Thiessen  12:23  

Okay. When you click the share screen and you choose the screen you want to share, you also need to make sure that you tick off the boxes in the bottom left corner to share sound. And

Deena Kordt  12:37  

Oh good. Thanks Wes.

Diana Lowe  12:41  

Okay, it's letting me do the share sound but not the optimized for video clip.

Dr. Wes Thiessen  12:51  

The share sound should be sufficient to

Diana Lowe  12:53  

hopefully that'll work. And hopefully you're going to see the full screen of the video I'll start it and then I'll open up the full screen of the video, yell if you're not hearing it, okay, folks.

video  13:21  

Science tells us that the experiences we have in the first years of our lives actually affect the physical architecture of the developing brain. This means that brains aren't just born. They're also built over time based on our experiences. Just as a house needs a sturdy foundation to support the walls and roof, a brain needs a good base to support all future development. positive interactions between young children and their caregivers literally build the architecture of the developing brain. Building a sturdy foundation in the earliest years provides a good base for a lifetime of good mental function and better overall health. So just how is the solid brain foundation built and maintained in a developing child? One way is through what brain experts call serve and return interactions. Imagine a tennis match between a caregiver and a child. But instead of hitting a ball back and forth across the net various forms of communication paths between the two, from eye contact to touch, from singing to simple games like peekaboo. These interactions repeated throughout a young person's developing years are the bricks that build a healthy foundation for all future development. But another kind of childhood experience shapes brain development too, and that stress, good kinds of stress like meeting new people or studying for a test are healthy for development because they prepare kids to cope with future challenges. Another kind of stress called toxic stress is bad for brain development. If a child is exposed to serious ongoing hardships, like abuse and neglect, and he has no other caregiver in his life to provide support the basic structure years of his developing brain may be damaged. Without a sturdy foundation to properly support future development, he is at risk for a lifetime of health problems, development issues, even addiction. It's possible to fix some of the damage of toxic stress later on, but it's easier, more effective and less expensive to build solid brain architecture in the first place. One of the things that study brain architecture supports is the development of basic emotional and social skills, and important group of skills which scientists call executive function and self regulation can be thought of like air traffic control in the child's mental airspace. Think of a young child's brain as the control tower at a busy airport. All those planes landing and taking off and all of the support systems on the ground simultaneously demand the controller's attention to avoid a crash. It's the same with a young child learning to pay attention, plan ahead and remember and follow lots of rules. Like all of us, kids have to react to things happening in the world around them, while also dealing with worries, temptations and obligations on their minds. As these demands for attention pile up. Air traffic control helps the child regulate the flow of information, prioritize tasks, and above all find ways to manage stress and avoid mental collisions along the way. Having this ability is a necessity for positive and level mental health. Developing Effective air traffic control, overcoming toxic stress, and building solid brain architecture are things kids can't do on their own. And since strong societies are made up of healthy contributing individuals, it's up to us as a community to make sure all young people have the kinds of nurturing experiences they need for positive development. To build better futures, we need to build better brains.

Diana Lowe  17:06  

Okay, thank you for letting me share that with you. Let's talk now about the family that I mentioned. Katie and Tom are a couple who were married about eight years ago, they have two children, four and six years old. Katie has been a stay at home mom's since the kids were born. Although she started to work part time at a local health club. Tom is an accountant who works very long hours. Katie has been taking fitness classes and has been enjoying going out for coffee after her classes. And in particular with Joe who is a member of the club. He's a lot of fun. He's very fit and seems to be interested in her. She's thinking more and more about how much happier she would be if she left home and was able to start a new life, perhaps with Joan. Both Katie and Tom had been feeling like they were growing apart. But they haven't spoken about their marriage or the problems that they're having. They're each feeling anxious about what will happen if they separate. There is so much at stake, financial parenting arrangements, where they'll live, what this will mean for their kids. They're frightened, and they're feeling real sadness at losing their relationship. They've both heard about other people. And they know who have gone through separation and divorce. And it's been terrible. From what they've heard. They believe that they need to hire lawyers, and that this is going to be a long and expensive legal battle. Harry and Tom moved to a new community a few years ago, and they don't have a lot of connections in their community. But they have joined their local church, and they happen to be speaking with their faith leader one day, and she mentioned to them that she was helping to lead some classes for families who are dealing with separation and divorce. They asked questions and learn more, that told them that the options were very different from what they had both imagined. Katie and Tom signed up for the classes. They both sought out guidance, which included counseling to assist them with having a good separation and establishing a positive path forward. They're both getting supports for their own needs. They were still worried about the decisions that they needed to deal with. But they learned about tools and services that could help them. They signed up for an online app called co parenting, which helped them to develop a parenting plan for their two kids. The app provides access to a mediator who can coach them through challenges and can mediate disputes they may have. They've learned about how to work out challenges and how to communicate effectively with each other. They were also able to get financial counseling, which helped them to work out their arrangements for support. They've agreed that Tom will pay support until Katie's able to find work. He will contribute to child maintenance and they will split the section seven expenses. There were some unresolved questions about the value of assets that they brought into the relationship and with the assistance of a mediator, they were able to work through the division of assets together. This included a hockey sweater collection, and while the value might not have been the most portant thing, Katie really wanted one sweater in particular. So with the help of the mediator, they agreed to split the collection, Katie got the first choice, so she was able to choose the sweater that she cherished. And then they went on to split the remaining pieces of that collection. With the help of a lawyer, and some tools that they had learned about, they were able to write up their agreement, and to file a joint application for divorce. The lawyer signed witness and filed the documents for them. Katie and Tom have been able to move forward with their lives. They're both involved in new relationships and are able to acknowledge the importance of both families to their children. Their children have adjusted really well to the new family situation, and are looking forward to a new family member who will be part of Katie and her new partners household, and their kids are thriving. That's the most important hope and dream that both Katie and Tom had for their kids. And they still share those hopes and dreams, whether it's cheering on their kids in soccer, planning for special vacations, or thinking forward to their teenage years and their educations. The most important thing is that their children are supported and have benefited from the skills that their parents have learned. They have good executive functioning are well regulated, have their own friends and social supports, and the skills to communicate and deal with conflicts that might arise in their own lives. This is all real and possible. It's a really different story about how families can move forward in a positive way, even though through the challenges of separation and divorce. It begins with learning about the negative impact of trauma, which can include the high conflict around unresolved disputes relating to separation and divorce, and about how we can make choices to reduce that conflict, to learn skills that will help to deal with the stresses of everyday life, as well as the stresses arising when your family is restructuring. And it's about building strong relationships to support you. Separation, and divorce can still be a really difficult experience. But it doesn't have to be one that creates harm, or that involves high conflict or high financial costs. Let me just show you one more thing on the shared screen.

You should be able to see this resilience scale, as a system that RFJ is is trying to find ways to help families to work through the many decisions that they need to make, without framing them as legal adversarial questions that they have to fight about. If you think about the story of Katie and Tom, I think you'll see how their story reflects the resilience scale that's in front of you. Their decision to avoid high conflict was part of reducing the negative experiences of families reducing the weight on the left hand side of the scale. In the RFJ, as we see this as reducing the impact of trauma such as the conflict that can be made worse when families get caught up in a cycle of court processes and fighting. It can be about never starting down that path or finding a way to step back. If you are already involved in litigation, and seek resolution rather than a battleground. That can include mediation, collaborative practice, and other ways of helping parties to reach a good agreement. As with Katie and Tom, we're trying to ensure that families get the kinds of supports that they need and build the skills that will help them to work through the challenges that they're dealing with, so that they and their children can follow a path to resilience and well being. And that's really about increasing the weight with the green boxes on the right hand side of the scale. There are many supports available in our communities in Alberta, through faith based groups, as you heard Katie and Tom dealt with through family and community support services, which are really available throughout the province of Alberta. Peer support groups, community involvement, even including sports or other groups that help you to make connections with people in your communities, and many of the services that are available in the divorce magazine. And of course through the divorce resource group. We also saw that Katie and Tom gained new skills. Another way that we can help to build resilience or tip the scale is by shifting the fulcrum, this green triangle at the bottom of this resilience scale. That's the part of the scale that relates to building new skills. And these could be better communication skills, parenting skills, conflict resolution, executive regulation, all sorts of things that families may need. There are lots of programs available to help make this possible, including the CO parent or app that Katie and Tom use programs that are available through the government like parenting after separation, new ways for families and more. That's much of what the reforming family justice system is about. tipping the scale To help families to Achieve Wellness, as their family is restructuring. We encourage professionals who are involved in family restructuring to learn about and embrace the well being approach to separation and divorce. And we hope that parents can avoid adversarial approaches and conflict for the sake of themselves and the well being of their children. We know that some of you may feel worried about stresses or circumstances that may have already occurred, you might be feeling oh my gosh, I've done harm to my kids I have been fighting. But the really positive and hopeful thing about brain science knowledge is that it's possible to build resilience, even if there have been some negative experiences earlier in life. That's the concept of neuroplasticity, which is about healing that can occur when supports are put in place that helped to build resilience and reduce the risks of lifelong harm. It's also possible to reduce the effects of toxic stress through supportive relationships with adults. And while you may not be able to change the way that your former partner chooses to move forward, you can make your own choices, which will be healthy choices for you and for your children. This is really important for our policies, programs, and for helping individual families to achieve healthy outcomes in spite of adverse experiences. And I'm going to end there, and to do so by wishing all of you the very best outcomes for your families. But I'd really like to open things up for comments from the other professionals who are part of the meeting, and to give people a chance to ask questions.

Deena Kordt  26:33  

That's amazing, Diana, I love the approach that you've taken to the health of the whole family and especially of the children. And I know when we talked before, the concept to have helping upstream and trying to make changes early on, and to recognize that these will have lifelong impacts, you know, the way that we choose to deal with a difficult situation, whether it does end up in divorce or separation, or not, that the way we deal with it will not only impact us but deeply impact the children which can create a cycle and to try and reimagine how that is handled and how we can find the resources that we need to to better cope and help our families cope. Don, please jump in.

Don Schapira  27:32  

Well, thank you, Diana. Again, every time I get to hear you speak, it's it's, you know, I glean more and more information, regardless of how much I've been involved. But I think that one of the things that's really important to understand is the level of time and research that has come to come to these outcomes in these conclusions. And the amount of work that you've personally put in, and two levels of of justice that you've been right. So the RFJ, as you know, if you can explore a little bit about what how it started. Its Genesis, how it evolved, and how you got to kind of where you are here and where the initiatives are really focused on now and in sort of broad community scope.

Diana Lowe  28:17  

Sure, I'm happy to do that. If I start at the beginning, and it's always hard to figure out, well, where is the beginning, but I would say to the beginning of the the formal process of the reforming Family Justice Initiative, is about eight or nine years ago, and it occurred as reports were being released by something called the National Action Committee on access to justice, which was established across Canada, with people involved from throughout the justice systems, the formal justice systems in Canada, and every jurisdiction of the country. One of the key areas of concern of the National Action Committee was on family justice. And so they did some preliminary work around just learning what kinds of things have been taking place. What are the reports that are out there about family justice? Have there been initiatives? And that report came out in 2012. And in it, it said, a couple of things. One of the things was, we've been doing all of these good things, things that could include more mediation, more use of conciliatory processes, faster access into our court system, in some jurisdictions, unified family courts, all of these examples that it goes through, and it says, but we still have these harms happening. We still have this experience where families are experiencing more harm than good from our system, which is a pretty tragic statement for the system's players to be talking about. And so what they call for in that preliminary report was something that they called a transformational change a pair paradigm shift, a really significant change to the way that family justice was dealt with. That was repeated in the report that came out in 2013. From the National Action Committee on family justice. And so we had this interesting call for significant change, which I would say to you is what we picked up on in Alberta, which was the transformation of our system, with about 33 recommendations in the report that we're talking about ways to make the system more effective, and to improve things in the way that the existing system worked. And there's a real difference between those two kinds of recommendations, one calls for a paradigm shift what the other calls for making the system that we have worked better or improving the existing paradigm, what we say is that you kind of have to do both, we can't ignore that the current system doesn't work as well as it could, because we can't just close it down while we transform and create something new. And so there are still huge efforts going on to make our existing system work better. But ultimately, what we need to be able to do is to release that system, and to really focus on the transformation. And that transformational change has been guided largely by the evidence of brain science, which has been so well understood in Alberta because of efforts like the Alberta family wellness initiative. So those videos that I've spoken about the one that we just watched, really helping us to understand that there is strong evidence that doesn't just anecdotally say we don't think that there are good outcomes for families. But what it does is to say, we know that there's not good outcomes, brain science tells us that separation and divorce is an adverse childhood experience. But beyond that, the other nine adverse childhood experiences that were identified in international research in brain science, are about neglect, abuse, and household dysfunction. And they show up in almost all of the family matters that are before our court system that are into that legal adversarial approach. So what brain science tells us is that we're doing harm in the way we have undertaken family justice. And it's just one more reason why we have to do things differently. And the brain science tells us that we can build resilience by reducing that toxic kind of impact on children's brains as they are growing up. But of course, it affects everyone, it's better for the mom and dad, in those families, if they aren't feeling that kind of toxic stress. That we need positive support sets, one of the principles in building resilience is we need to have positive supports. And if we didn't know that before, we all know it after COVID. We know the importance of connection after COVID. And then there are just some really key skills that people can be helped with. And what we also know is that we're not focusing on any of that if we're just focused on legal processes, which tend to be all about how to get things into court, what the processes are to do. So how long it takes to get there, getting a lawyer in place, all of those things, that doesn't give families access to the kinds of skills building and supports that they need. So we really want to untangle all of those issues and help give priority to the social relationship, parenting and financial needs of families. So that that is something that's in place and can help build resilience for whatever the approach needs to be on the legal side of what's happening in those families. In Alberta, that messaging around what that paradigm shift means and the impact of toxic stress and the brain science around resilience has really been a big part of the culture shift that we have been trying to guide people who are using our systems as well as everyone who works in them, the policymakers and everyone else. But we also have been playing with these new ideas and experimenting with them. So we've run pilots using co parent her. We've used that even in a domestic violence setting. We have run pilots in shifting Family Court counselors out of a court setting and into a family and community supports office, which really helped to underline the importance of families getting access to the kinds of non legal supports that are so important for their needs, and helping the system to recognize that these aren't legal issues only that they are primarily issues about so many other things for families. We have worked with new ways for families in Alberta and have pilots that have helped us to see that that is a way of skill building around communication and new approaches that families can take. And most recently, one of the key things that has been going on has been work in the community of Grand Prairie where that Community has allowed us to come in and to introduce all of these concepts and to build across multiple sectors and interest in creating the kinds of supports that families need, ensuring that we know about the skills that will help them to improve their outcomes. And getting ready to put those in place so that the formal justice system can say, you know, what, courts aren't the best place to be dealing with these issues, let's make sure that we have at try to address these with the kinds of skills and supports that your families need, that are less toxic, that are more focused on well being. And that isn't ready to, we're not ready to flip the switch yet and Grand Prairie but that community has done some incredible work over the last two years, they've obtained funding internally to be able to support this work, they've created a Family Justice Navigator Project. And they are working with meetings tomorrow, actually, where we're going to be working more and more at a strategy approach that is supporting the way that they can move forward with all of these changes. So a lot of exciting stuff going on, that is helping us to really try these ideas out. And we're increasingly thinking of Grand Prairie as a demonstration community that's going to help the rest of the province See, this is possible. And that doesn't mean that other communities need to sit back and wait and just, you know, keep doing what we're doing. It's really amazing if we can keep having these discussions and to be building up the kinds of skills and supports and just that shift in thinking everywhere. I can tell you that as I spoke about this at a conference just last week, one of the first questions that came up, after I had finished speaking was Why did you go to Grand Prairie? Why aren't you in my community, we need you here, which was kind of a nice affirmation that there was some interest. And what I said was, call a meeting in your community and we'll come talk, I can't be running the change in every part of the province by myself. So let's engage in your community and empower people to be doing this together. Because really, it is something we all need to do. Does that come close to answering what you were hoping I would touch on or was there anything else that you wanted?

Don Schapira  37:17  

Oh, no, that's a that was completely answered a different court? No, I'm just kidding. That was? It's, you know, I obviously, I've been involved at certain points and a huge fan of the difference that you're making. I guess the the there's recent changes done in I guess, in terms of a follow up question. There were recent changes down to the divorce. And when I say resubmitted a few years back now already. Do you feel that you the influence of maybe not the RF J. S group in specific, but the movement for reforming or reimagining has taken hold? Are there more changes that you see coming? And I kind of have a follow up question regarding where the future lies and how technology can help with the advent of AI? So there's a lot there to unpack. I know. But I guess I'm just, I'm curious to your thoughts.

Diana Lowe  38:13  

I would say to you that the changes to the Divorce Act were not in any way driven by the RFJ, as they had been in process for some time. But I think that knowledge that the family justice system really isn't serving the needs of families well was at the heart of it, there is much more of a move to mediation, much more of a recognition of the harms, through domestic violence, for example, that are all reflected in the Divorce Act. In an ideal world, I would actually be far more explicit about things like reducing harms, and building supports and skills and all of those sorts of things. But I think that we can bring those kinds of practices in whether they're specifically reflected in the Divorce Act. And I do know that the federal government as well as you know, the convening organizations in Alberta that are already involved with the RFJ, as they are increasingly paying more and more attention to this, and part of the big systems transformation that needs to be taking place that we're going to bring about these big changes. But the changes also happen at the level of what you can do in your own individual practice or in your own family, if we're talking to a family that is dealing with these kinds of issues. And so there is space for all of this and it does make a difference at every level. You had a follow up to a follow up I think,

Don Schapira  39:41  

yeah, and I guess with you know, do you think that the advent of AI is going to speed things up or transition some of the some of the, you know, ideas that you've had already, maybe you can take a leap forward in certain areas just because of the ease and availability of summonings.

Diana Lowe  40:02  

Yeah, it's interesting because the work that we've been doing in Grand Prairie just as an example, is work that began in person in Grand Prairie about five days before COVID Shut the world down. And so just as jerky, the courts, co convener, and Don Cranston, the law, society's co convener, and I were able to travel to Grand Prairie, and we had in person meetings, and then everything stopped. And it took us a while to get our heads around, could we actually do this work without physically bringing people together. And we started, we started later in 2020. With doing that, at the same time, my counterpart in British Columbia, and I were working with someone in Minnesota around how you do strategy mapping. And we did all of that online, we've held probably 20 meetings with the Grand Prairie community as virtual meetings. And their lengthy meetings, we hold them for about three, three and a half hours. But it has enabled us to have the CO conveners and myself from across the province of Alberta, with collaborators, mostly in the community of Grand Prairie, but others watching we can get people in from Lethbridge. And we get others who are just interested in this from the university, for example, and they come in and they observe what's taking place and they participate. They don't just sit us fly on the walls, we don't really put up with that kind of behavior, you have to be engaged. And so the use of technology has been amazing. There are limitations to it, though, I think we all know that the the reach of our technology is only as good as people's access to bandwidth and to computers. And so in rural communities, and in a lot of our indigenous communities, this is a challenge. And we need to find ways to better access the kinds of technologies that are possible. And then even within. So what I've said to you is, we've used technology to inform that major systems process that's been written up now in international journals on change management, that the work that's happening in Alberta is used as a case study. It's been used most recently as a case study by the IBM center on the business of government. And so that's something that's up at the level of the White House and other big governments and should be across Canada as well, to say, this is a process that works. And we've learned all of that through technology. We've used it to bring a community together. And one of the examples that came out of the Grand Prairie community was just one, but how do we develop some of these skills? And we said, well, you know, we can see we're using technology, even if in some of our smaller communities, we don't have access to all of the supports and services that might be possible are there some that are available online, and we have now had, the folks we work with in Minnesota establish something that they call an E Learning Center, so an online electronic access to different kinds of learning. And they've given that to the community of Grand Prairie for free to continue to build so that this will be a resource that people throughout the community will be able to utilize. And so again, another way to move forward and give access in a much more fair and equitable way across the province.

Don Schapira  43:28  

Thank you. Yeah, you've certainly answered my questions. Thank you so much.  

Deena Kordt  43:35  

Thank you, Diana, for sharing with us the work that you've done. I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Like Don mentioned, you've been at this for years. It's a team effort. You've been a spokesperson, I was honored to witness the exchange at the conference last week and your presentation, but also that exchange with the other community saying, Please help us. And we, you know, we want on board and the credibility of that that lens that the recognition of the work that you've done, this is a real thing. It's not just a theory, it is work that is already starting to show up and make a difference. And they want to be on it now. And I think that's very important that you mentioned that it is a matter of, you know, getting on board now is as good a time as, as, as any it's better than waiting. And, you know, just be a part of this re formation and reimagining. Now, you have mentioned RFJS and I just want to say that that is reforming or reimagining the family justice system. And that is the work that that you're deeply involved with now and on behalf of society. Thank you. Because we may not even realize the each change in the impact that you have created for us personally. And it's already happening. And that is so important, you know, whether we know it or not that it is going to make a difference for our future generations, it's going to increase the support, decrease the stress, increase resiliency, and you know, just the parenting skills and the parenting availability in a more healthy way is going to be available for the children in our future and in our communities because of the work that you're doing as well. And hopefully, that helps the cycle. In the future that, no, we can't maybe reduce the percentage of relationships that are going to end in separation or divorce, but we can help them navigate it in a healthier way to reduce the impact, the negative impact on our communities in general, because those children are experiencing things that maybe even some of their peers aren't experiencing. And as they share that with other kids, it scares other kids. And maybe their family isn't in a position where there's going to be a marriage ending. But now when their parents have a bit of a an animated discussion, they'll be oh my god, I know my friends, family is going through this terrible stuff. And maybe this is now going to happen in my family. So it there's so many ripples to this, we could just go on about it forever. And I'll just briefly share something I experienced even as a as a newly divorced person with adult children, and how that affected a close relationship I had with my adult daughter, and beautifully intelligent, amazing person. And I so respect that she recognized that there was a there was a shift, there was this elephant in the room, and she requested that we meet with a mediator and neutral party, that the two of us could work on that relationship and, and have someone that would be there to help facilitate opening, you know, starting to look at that elephant head on. So I think I want to encourage everyone to learn more about what you'd have to offer, and you do have some links you want to share. And while you do that, Joan, you would like to jump in  

Joan Small  47:21  

is that you had shared about the CO parent or program or tool that you have, could you just share a bit more about that?

Diana Lowe  47:32  

Sure. So co parenting is an online tool that was created down in the States, but by a Canadian who lives there, who had been going through what he described himself as a really negative experience in a separation and divorce. They had been using a different online tool to work through the litigation process. And he said, what he came to realize is that it was a tool for litigation, not a tool that helps support the parenting itself. And so he literally stopped working in his own field, and undertook the creation of the CO parent or app brought in experts from across different spheres, including from experts in the Family Justice sphere. And what they developed is really a parenting tool. It's not a litigation tool, but a parenting tool. It helps families as they're dealing with issues around communication, it has calendars it has information that helps you to develop a plan for access and visitation between the two parents sharing all kinds of health information if you need to, or you know, report cards can be shared through this. And but one of the things that it does that I think is the most important is that it coaches you both in the way that the app itself works, taking individual questions and helping you to find ways to work through them not bombarding the other party with a whole bunch all at once in a big emotional way. But to break things down into individual concerns. And if you need help to be either coached or assisted in mediation, one issue at a time, very early on as that matter is coming up as as a dispute so that you can learn and be coached into how to better deal with the issues as parents. And I see that Wes already has his hand up but was you've had some experience working with the CO parent rap as one of our volunteer mediators and I think your perspective on what you saw the tool being able to do with families that would probably be really helpful, but essentially that is what it is. It's a tool that the parties can get access to by each paying a licensing fee which can be paid monthly or you can Take it out for a year. And it's quite reasonable and cost. It's $15. us to be able to license this, and it gives you access to all of these different resources.

Deena Kordt  50:14  

Wes, please jump in and share your thoughts on this.

Dr. Wes Thiessen  50:19  

Thank you, Deena. Thank you, Diana, for talking about the capacitor app. And for your question, Joan, I found my experience with the app was was fascinating. I love the idea that we're the app actually helps to coach people and teach them in skills that they need to help them navigate this really challenging time. But then also, those skills are going to help them as they continue to go on to other relationships in the future, so that maybe some of those bumps along the road can become smaller, or they can eliminate them in future relationships. When I first got started in mediation, it was the early 90s. And I got involved in an alternative to the criminal justice system as a victim offender mediation program. What I love about what RFJS is doing now is they're trying to encourage the alternatives to this adversarial system and Family Court. But, of course, even as you've demonstrated from last week's conference, communities might not be aware of these alternatives, or might not know how to best engage them. And I think about the people who might be watching the video, or participating today, one of them might say, well, I'd love to be able to do this, but I can't convince my partner or how do I get my partner in on involved or on board? What could you recommend to somebody who's very familiar with the criminal justice system? To somebody who says, I'd like to do something different? How do I get my, my partner that I'm, you know, on a path to divorce with how can I get them on board to consider this for the sake of our children.

Diana Lowe  52:01  

One of the ways, in my mind at least is sharing some of the resources that are available. So for example, some of the judges in the courts in Alberta will say to to families that are coming to them and asking them to make those decisions for them. Really disempowering the families from making the decisions that make sense for their kids, is they will say, I'm not going to grant your order, I'm not going to make that decision. But here's what we are going to do. And they will direct them to watch exactly the video that I shared with you all, but the resilience video as well, and then to reflect for themselves on what does that mean, in terms of their kids, and to to share that information between them. And so that may be one of the ways to do it is to look at those videos. And to encourage the other party to do that. I would say that the divorce magazine. And I wanted to mention this before. While Don is very effusive in thanking me for the work that I do, and I very much appreciate that. But everybody that's in the divorce magazine, in my mind has really adopted this approach this supports for families. And so I think that the divorce magazine is both the article that Justice jerky and I wrote, but all of the articles are finding ways to provide skills and supports. And I think they're encouraging families to take that different approach by modeling it so that if you've got a spouse who is not embracing this right away, you can still model it with them and say, I really don't want to fight about this, let's find different ways, and encouraging some of the, you know, approaches like mediation or getting support around co parenting, these kinds of things. But also at its heart, the most important thing that you can do, because it is all about the kids is to be that person for your kids, to be helping them to ensure that you're supporting them, that you're getting them the kinds of things that they need in their lives. And just thinking about their well being from the understanding of what toxic stress does, protecting them from toxic stress, helping them with the supports they need him and with the skills building is critical. And if that is the only thing you can do, it is probably the most important thing you can do.

Deena Kordt  54:21  

Thank you, Diana, thank you everyone who's weighed in and are there any other questions or comments I want to honor everyone's time today. You want anyone else have anything they'd like to add? I so appreciate everyone's participation, your questions, your comments and your inputs and and all that you're doing out in our communities and for our families to to create these supports and increase the resiliency and decrease that toxic stress and help things move along a little easier and and maybe even avoid a complete dissolution of our marriage or relationship with those supports in mind. So thank you all for being here today, especially Dianna for sharing what you've done so far. And we will be excited to watch and see what happens in the future. And I would love to have you back again, and hear even more about what you're working on because this is literally like the tip of the iceberg. And it is a very exciting introduction to what we can foresee in the future.  

I apologize for the sound quality or lack of, we were really struggling with some technical issues on that recording. But thanks for hanging in there and being a trooper and here you are at the end. much appreciation. Hopefully you heard something today that helps you wherever you might be in life. Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social. Know anyone who might find this information helpful. Be a friend and share it. And hey, thank you for hanging out with me today. Keep smiling up beautiful smile. The world needs your sunshine. It means a lot that you spend this time with us and meet our experts and professionals who can help you through divorce or separation. Please refer to our terms of service available on our website, divorce magazine canada.com. The link is in the show notes. Our disclaimer, divorce resource groups, blog and all content, including our podcast is intended to educate and provide quality credible resource information. The contents should not be used as factual until consultation with the appropriate professionals for any guidance. Divorce magazine Canada does not constitute endorsements for nor liability for any claims made in the presenting of this information.