#60 Divorce Diaries - Kirk
Divorce Diaries is a series of candid conversations about people's experiences of divorce or separation.
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Kirk Mosna joins me today to share his experiences with parental alienation.
Read his blog post "Broken Bonds: Navigating Parental Alienation - One Father's Tale"
Kirk and his wife, Karen, offer free Divorce coaching consultation - email Karen at Karen@divorceworkshop.ca
Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.
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Transcript:
Kirk Mosna 0:00
Hi, it's Kirk from the divorceworkshop. Your listening to Life Changes Channel.
Deena Kordt 0:06
Life comes with many changes, some are expected. Some are unexpected, some positive, some challenging, but you don't have to navigate them alone. There are people who care and want to help. You're in the right place because I'm here to connect you with them.
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Hi, I'm Deena Kordt, an author, blogger, publisher, and empowerment coach. Thank you for joining me today on the Life Changes Channel podcast, where we'll cover topics around life changes that you might be facing in your career in education, health, finances, relationships, parenting, aging, real estate, lifestyle, loss, and personal growth. This show started out as a Divorce Magazine Canada podcast, but so much of the content could also apply, even if you aren't dealing with a divorce or separation. So now it's Life Changes Channel, there will still be lots of information to support you or someone you care about who is dealing with divorce or separation, I encourage you to go back and meet all the incredible guests in the earlier episodes, there is so much gold there.
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Joining me on the show today in the Divorce Diaries Series is Kirk Mosna. Now, he and his wife Karen are developing a workbook, a divorce workbook. That is something you can take through different steps and stages as you experience a divorce, but he also has a personal story about alienation as a parent, and how that has affected him and how he's dealing with that. It's a very interesting experience to consider because you aren't always aware of what can happen as a parent, even when you feel that you were very close to your child. So let's hear his story and learn more about this book that they are putting together for you, which will be coming out soon.
Welcome, Kirk, I am really excited to talk to you today because you have some personal experience that we want to hear more about, and also what you were doing with that and how that has been part of the why and what you and your wife Karen are developing for people. Welcome to the show. Thank you very pleased to have you here. And I'm happy that you guys reached out and connected. So please tell us more about you and what you're up to.
Kirk Mosna 3:39
Well, thanks for having us on. And yeah, we're Karen and I started the divorce workshop a couple years ago. And, and it's we're both divorced and we figured we'd be able to offer our skills and our experiences in helping others to kind of navigate this difficult journey. It's divorce is difficult and it certainly is a journey and it has like every journey there's ups and downs and but it's part of it is is it's very complex. And so when we started to do the research and Karen Karen's a thin ecologist so she has experience as a grief specialist. So she her her skills and her counseling skills all kind of came together with with you know divorce because there's a lot of grief and divorce. There's many many emotions involved in and she studied most of them. Now myself, I'm a designer so I I was able to offer my graphic skills and web web design skills to kind of bring it all together and make it into something that's easy to present and presentable. And and so what we chose to develop it is rather than kind of a passive reading book, we decided to make a what we call a workbook. So workbook being kind of something that you are, you know, you kind of get active in, its hands on. So it's, we call it the divorce workshop. workbook, it's a hands on Guide to Everything divorced. So when I say hands on, it means that you kind of have to do work. But but it's all work that's, that's fairly easy to get through. And it's like one page at a time, versus having to kind of read somebody else's experience of divorce, and how they got through it or how you should get through, we help you to go through some self tests to, to learn more about yourself and how you can get through this yourself. And then we do exercises and that what we call, because it's a workbook, we call it workouts.
So we try to keep it more like you're going to benefit from this, in many ways, you're going to learn about yourself, and then you're going to get stronger by doing the exercises and the workouts. So having said that, there's there's we have like six units in it. And it starts with insights to help you to kind of get a handle of what divorce really is, and it helps you to, to kind of learn right from the get go that, you know, most people's reaction to divorce is adversarial. And because let's face it, a lot of us are angry, because, you know, this thing didn't work out. And this other person, you know, was, you know, for one reason, or another, you need, you wanted to get a divorce, so there's not emotions at all. So we said, You've got to, from the get go, you need to kind of change your attitude about it, you treat it adversarially, then you're going to get a fight. And, and a fight can go on and on and on and on for years. And the best thing for divorce is to get it over with and move on with your life.
So insights helps you with strategies, and then we had find legal because let's, let's face it, there's a lot of legal changes that you made when you got married. And then there's a lot of legal changes, you have to undo, when you get divorced. Then we have section on emotions, which deals with some of the emotions. And as I mentioned earlier, there's workouts and tests that you can learn about yourself, that help you to get control of your emotions, because that's really, it's really important, because if not, as I said earlier, like both in insights, if you don't, you're just gonna get yourself into trouble. And when you get yourself into trouble, your ex is going to fight right back and you're going to both be in trouble because it's going to last and last.
Then we go to finance because that is one of the biggest worries that we find in in divorces. Now what, you know, if it's really fair, you're splitting your, your assets, and your incomes and, and, and let's face it, it's like, it's not going to be the same life that you had before, because it's basically slashed in half. And so finance is a big thing that we have to deal with. And then if you have children, then dealing with children and how to deal with them and what to look out for. There's a lot of talk in the children's about alienation. That's something that I got, that happened to me, and it and I and so it's kind of a something that I want to urge people to become aware of as soon as possible. So you can deal with it.
And then the final chapter, and which kind of the right place to be is his recovery, and how do you recover. So there's, there's some exercises to help you to recover and to get you to get your get to know yourself again, because in divorce, like in marriage, you become somewhat of a different person. Because if you don't, then your marriage isn't going to work anyway. So but you've got to basically become a you become kind of become a couple. When you become divorced, you're no longer that. So you have to undo that. And you have to often refined who you are and become that new person so that you can move on because if not, you don't get on here. All right, and you got to just keep moving on. So that's kind of in a nutshell, though. So the books got about 100. It's going to be about 150 pages where we're at. We're, this is kind of our second time we're writing it through but we're on chapter five right now. So we've got a we've got one more chapter to get through and you It's, it's, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of work. Because, as I said, it's not like just writing and typing, it's i because I'm a, I have to do a lot of drawing, and needed to make the book very inviting. Because one of the risks with when somebody says it's a workbook is that I mean, I have to do work, I don't want to do work well, we try to make it as inviting as possible. So it's a, it's kind of a nicer looking book. So it's something that you can go through one page at a time. And there's, there's some stories in there, it's just a way to kind of make it not a too much work for somebody, but something that they can kind of pick up, do a page and then put it away and then do another page, when they're when they feel like they need to do something. So, you know,
Deena Kordt 10:54
there's so many, there's so many things about this, that are really beautiful, I feel like this is a labor of love that you to have, it's a gift that you are offering to people from your own experiences from, you know, Karen's education as well around grief. And it's one thing to pick up a book and read. But to be able to customize it, work through it, interact with it from wherever you are at that time, and to and pace yourself and, and have these encouraging actions even like, there's, there's tangible things you can do. There's writing or there's exercises, there's this, maybe you just read it, and you don't know what you want to write at that moment, or you don't know how this applies to your life, but it's still it still is in your mind and can really be beneficial. So I really appreciate how you've put a lot of intention and thought into the person using it. How will it be received, its its aesthetic, aesthetically pleasing, as well as it doesn't look like a daunting work book like this, there's going to be homework or heavy assignments, it's done to actually self help to actually give people opportunity to help guided by what you've built. So I just think that's phenomenal.
Kirk Mosna 12:20
Thank you, you're really you're really hit hit it on the head, because really, when you're reading a book, it's not about you. It's about it's about the author. And yeah, there's wisdom coming from the author. But what you said was really cool is that it is it's about you and you're doing the work and you're discovering stuff about yourself, and what and the book is intended and like you like you pointed out, it's intended to find out stuff about you, not about the author, right, because the author like the other like where the author is, obviously, but like when you read a passive reading book, it's all of the author's insights, not yours, where you start to become a cog in control of this book, because it's about you, not about somebody else. Right. And that's, that's cool that you've picked up on that so quickly. Well,
Deena Kordt 13:13
that's good, that that's the intention, is that clear. I love knowing that there are other people's stories and insights available, because so much of what the content I offer like you're speaking today, helps people out there know, they aren't alone, it's very important that they do hear those stories and insights, but then to also have a tool like what you've created, where they can interact with it, they start writing their own story and actually exploring through guided by you, and the work that you and Karen have put into this. And they feel like there's someone who cares and has built this for them, and is now going to help them work through these very difficult portions of the healing process and then offer them a recovery chapter at the end. So I think that's great. Now I want to unpack what you hinted about earlier. Some of the experiences that you have had and and how that has been a very important area that you wanted to caution and and help people navigate
Kirk Mosna 14:16
with with regards to the alienation is referring to Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't want to sound victim II or anything because let's face it, guys just don't. That's not what we're about. We always put on a strong face. So I'm not going to I'm going to try to avoid being victimized. So what I I'm
Deena Kordt 14:37
going to hit a timeout here, because I don't want guys like yourself or anybody listening. The men's mental health around this. Yes. It's very concerning, because they feel that they aren't. You know, they have to be tough. They can't be the victim. When we talk about abuse, you know, one in four men one and three women In her are affected by abuse. That's a very high statistic. And a lot of people don't realize that men struggle with this. And men's mental health is just as important to women's and they have, they have struggles too. So I don't want to discount. You know, the struggle, whether it was from the father's side or the mother's side. So please go ahead. And you know, we're going to, we're going to use that filter to listen to your story.
Unknown Speaker 15:31
Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah, you're right. It's our mental health is, is just as important. And we're just as fragile and vulnerable, sometimes more because people don't like, you know, because as, as a society, we, we frown upon we, we men, that's just not what we're supposed to be. So, but yeah, you're right, where we're vulnerable, where we're, our mental health is, can be affected. I'm, I feel pretty good. I wish I had been more aware of it. So really key. So essentially, what happened in my, in my experiences, I, I, I told my ex that it's time that we get a divorce. And she, she, she was not too happy about that idea. It's not something that she wanted. And she from the onset, she, she, she digested it came back to me the next day, and she says, I'm going to make your life. Hell. And this is so I was at the dinner. We were having lunch, I was having lunch with my son at the in the kitchen. And she came up and said, I'm gonna make your life hell. And so, and she did she, she's very good at that. And so that was kind of the beginning of it.
Kirk Mosna 17:00
And so what happened after that is, as I lived in a house for another, I want to say another six months. And then she told me at the at the beginning of the January, she says it's okay, so now you're moving out. I said, Okay, fine. So I moved out. And at that point, I, I kept in touch with my children. My, my oldest son, I had by regularly saw my younger son. He's, he's very much like me, he's, he's a graphic designer and a podcaster, and a videographer. And he's just into tech, and all that stuff. So so he would, he was, he was 17, at the time, and he was he had just started developing his, his, his YouTube channel, and so on. So he would constantly send me like images and say, Kirk, Pa, you know, can you? Can you help me? I've got to get this up by five o'clock. And I need this image redone. Can you help me? How do you do it? And so I could whip these things off pretty quickly for him. So I helped him. So I, you know, I was I was living somewhere else. But I was still basically helping him do his work.
And we had, we had always had a good relationship, so and we continued that for about another eight months, and so on. And then then my ex decided that she was going to give my mother a piece of her mind, because she felt that my mother was the cause of the divorce, which obviously she wasn't because my mother didn't say, my mother would see us very, very seldomly, actually. And so she, she called my mother up and, and called every name in the book and, and said that I was a weasel and that my mother was dying. I don't want to even say the words here, but every name in the book, and, and my mother was at the time was 83. And so my mother, all my mother could do is, is really say, I'm sorry, and she hung up, and so she hung up on it. Now, I find out from my oldest son, that that she had done this, she had made this call in front of my children as well. So this was kind of it seemed like this was the this is that the point when my youngest son decided to I guess you could say ghost me as they say young people say so. i i I had only like I said I had prior to that I had regular contact with them and I would help them every opportunity I could.
And then this this seemed to happen and then I I saw my son, five years ago, after I dropped off my oldest son to my exes sisters on Christmas might, I asked if my son could come up my younger son commode. He sat in the car with me for five minutes. And we talked for a few minutes. And then he went back and, and we, and I haven't talked to him or seen him since he won't respond to my emails or anything. emails, texts, phone calls, I get nothing, nothing. So at this point, I had not even known what the word like I knew what an alien was, because that was in science fiction. But I didn't know what alienation was. So parental alienation. So I started to read about read up on this. And I had met Karen, about five years ago, and she started to she started to talk about what this word alienation was. And, and she said, yeah, people call it a bunch of different things course of control, abuse by proxy, or alienation.
So we started to do we started to do some research into this. And we found Dr. Annie Baker, she's, she's a very famous child psychologist who has done a lot of work in alienation, parental alienation. And she said, You call it whatever you want, but she calls it alienation. So I'm just going to talk a call and call it alienation. So that was, like in a in a kind of, in a very, very short, like, that was five years of alienation. So it's been actually been almost six years now since I really had a chance to see my my youngest son. And he's now 24. So you, parts of the problem was that I was not aware of this, this, this this, this thing called alienation. So that was part of the the first problem.
The second was, I didn't, I wasn't, I didn't know I was at risk of it. Like I didn't know I as a as a father, who had always been, like, connected with my kids, either through music, through homework, and through graphics and videos and helping them with all their computer related projects and school projects. I didn't know I was at risk of that, because I thought I had, like an excellent relationship with them. And we laughed, and we, you know, we did everything together. And then all of a sudden, it happened. So I didn't realize that I was at risk of it. Okay. So and then, I needed. Like, I didn't even I guess I could say that. I didn't know what to look for either. But all I knew was this, my son, my youngest son wasn't talking to me anymore. I couldn't get a hold of them.
And then my oldest son, who I was continuing to talk to, would tell me stuff of what was going on and the kinds of things that were being said about me, to my children, to, to our friends, to her family, and so on. So, I, I do now know what alienation is. I know what children do. I know what what exes do in order to alienate you from from your family. I have a sense of why they do it. And it's, it's a totally messed up thing. Because it it really, when you win it, like the way Amy Baker describes it, it is child abuse and child abuse. Like, I don't think my ex sees it that way she sees it that she needs to, she needs to like to punish me for divorcing her. And what she's doing is she's punishing me through my children. But in fact, what she's doing is she's punishing me but she's also punishing my children. And that is the abuse part. And that is something that people who alienate they don't get it because they're so angry or they're so wrapped up in making your life hell right which is what she which is what her promise was, that they don't really kind of understand that so
Deena Kordt 24:35
sounds very vindictive and manipulative.
Unknown Speaker 24:38
Vindictive. Good word.
Deena Kordt 24:42
You know, manipulating the children's perception of reality. With you know, what, what is their motive? It's, you know, to alienate yes to punish. Gain control, like you say pores of control is another term. For them, yes. It's very unfortunate. But tell us more what you've learned and manipulation.
Unknown Speaker 25:06
That's a great word. Because that is, in fact, what it is. It's manipulating a young person's mind, who is very impressionable, and we're children, you know, until they reach a certain age, like, you know, when kids get, you know, in their 20s, they don't really want to, they don't really care what you say, right? They trust, they trust a parent, they trust, and especially the young children they trust, because they, they've that's like, You're their parent that you're supposed to know stuff. So, so younger children, but even up to, you know, 17-18 year olds, they they can be manipulated. And Amy, Dr. Amy Baker says, yeah, they can be manipulated, because this is why you'll find young people joining gangs and being kind of coerced into doing drugs and doing other things that are not good for them. So to think that a teenager cannot be manipulated, psychologically manipulated, isn't truly like so. But it just, like, I guess the point I was trying to say is that you need to address it as the alienated or targeted parent, you need to address it as soon as possible. Because as they get older, there's less and less you can do.
Kirk Mosna 26:26
So. So as as I was saying, with, with me, my my children were 17 and 22. So it's not like I could go to court and say, you know, my, my ex is not allow manipulating my children, so they won't see me, because the courts are going to say, sorry, it's like they they're, they're almost adults, that they have their own minds at this point. So the idea that is to assert, like, if you're if you have young children, and you observe certain things that your children are doing, or saying, and for example, if they start calling you by your first name, that's not a good thing. It suggests that you are no longer you're their dad or their mother. Another example is, is if they start talking and criticizing you like an adult would like for example, if, like, my ex was spreading, knew, like when, like we separated, I was living somewhere else. I started to date after about six months. And so my ex would tell my children that I was whoring around, I was dating, she tells she tells them I'm whoring around. And she said that she might my oldest son was saying that, yeah, she told anybody who would listen to all all our family, friends and so on, that was the message wasn't dating is whoring around. So. So if your child says, Oh, you're whoring around, and your child in that kind of language is really not there, they're, you know, like, they're 12 years old, and they're saying that well, sounds like, somebody else is telling them that. Or if they say, you know, you're, you're not a good money manager, well, you know, that that's, that's been put in their heads rather than them formulating the, the, that sort of criticism of you. So those are the kinds of things that that come up, and you start to observe now, it's, it's, it's something you can, you can, like, if, if you see this in your children, you can do something about it right away.
Now, in my case, I couldn't do anything, because I wasn't, I couldn't see my children. So it wasn't like, I could, you know, basically connect with my child and say, let's, you know, let's, let's kind of talk about this, or let's do, let's do something together, because my child was wasn't wasn't willing to see me. But if you are, like, if you do have a child that is like, you know, 12 1314 years old, and you're seeing them, what, like, the best approach, and this is something that Dr. Baker had mentioned, was that what you need to do is you need to connect with them, and, and not correct them. So she has this five stage thing that basically addresses how to connect versus correct. And as a as a, it's a, it's a, it's a knee jerk reaction to say like, say, like, for example, if if your your kid says you're hurrying around, it's your knee jerk reaction is to say, oh, who told you that? That's, that's not true? Like it's, I can prove it. I'm just, you know, I'm just dating. I'm not whoring around.
And so what you're, that's not what you're supposed to do, because that's putting them on the defense. So, so in Imagine you, you're on the defense. And then two seconds later, you get a text from your, from a woman you're dating. And, and it's like, oh, it's an and they happen to see on your phone who it's from? Well, then they're like, you're, you're being defensive. And they're seeing proof of this now on your phone. So what Dr. Baker says is just just address it in a different way, connect with them, say I'm, I'm, I understand that you're, you're, you're angry about this, and I really appreciate you telling me this. And and you basically go through this thing where you're connecting, rather than trying to, you know, correct them, you're just connecting and saying, I understand you're angry, and so on. And the goal is to is to really validate their feelings rather than correct them.
Because, like, as I said, knee jerk reaction as people is like, if, if, if, if somebody accuses you of something, your knee jerk reaction is to say, no, that didn't happen, right? It, like who said that I can get and get angry? Well, that's not what we're supposed to do, we're supposed to lead up to, to telling them, after we connect with them, and we we validate them is to say, I understand that what you're saying, makes you angry, but it's not what what you like, that's not true, what, what, what, what you've been told, and so, but you don't, you don't kind of like, try to, you know, become the lawyer and say, you know, it's this is this, this and this and that, it's it's untrue. And your mother's just doing that to hurt me and blah, blah, blah, that's the worst thing you can do. That's what she says so. So instead, what you're trying to do is you try to connect with them, and to show them that you really do love them and care about them. And you kind of slip in the idea that, that you that the the things that you've been accused of, are not true. And then the final thing is to appeal to their kind of like, emotional side and say, you know, we really glad that you, you brought this up, because if I was, you know, if I if I heard that about somebody, I probably too would be would be upset. So it's, it's really a matter of connecting and validating them, and showing them that you're that you're, you're lovable, you're you care about them. And that is what a parent is supposed to do. So unfortunately, some of the mistakes I made was, when I told my ex that I that I want a divorce, I didn't bring the whole family together. And as a, as a couple, we didn't tell the kids that we were going to be divorced. It. And that was a mistake of mine.
And I I again, I didn't do that research, and I should have and I but now I know that the best way to handle a situation like when you have kids is to announce it as a couple rather than it's one sided. So and then what happens, what happened in my case is she told them her side of the story, which is, you know, I'm a bad person and this and that, and I'm you know, whatever for and what she, how she framed it, which I can understand is that I abandoned them. And that is a very, very, very typical, like, alienation strategy, because it's not that our marriage didn't work, and we needed to, like for the sake of everybody, we needed to, like divorce separate and divorce. No, it was all my doing. And it was I was abandoning them. No, I wasn't divorcing her. I was abandoning them. Right. And that I could see as a child could even as old as 17 could could say, oh, that's not a good thing. He must be a bad person if if he abandoned us. So. So if I guess if anyone who's listening is is considering divorcing and you're announcing it, make sure that you bring your whole family together and announce it as a couple rather than hear it from one side only because that's what happened with me.
Deena Kordt 34:40
That's really great advice to Kirk because I've heard from some divorce coaches and mediators that the optimal time to see them is when they're you're in the contemplation stage. You can start planning, even role playing some of those difficult conversations. So that There is less of a negative impact and less of a strong reaction. You've already explored some, you know what now what will have what? What now like, so here's what is going to happen. But I've already thought through how this maybe could, could work, and not just drop a bomb and walk away. And who knows, you know, what falls out of that, and the reactions and the fear and the terror and the drama that is created. So, you know, the whole rival compact competitiveness will also come out where, you know, the kids are caught in the middle and which parent is right, and who's playing dirty and who's, you know, just unaware maybe even if what's absolutely, what this what the rules of this war are. So I think it's really interesting, and I just heard something at a conference yesterday that really stuck with me is, if if someone shows you red flags, you see red flags, don't try and change the color.
Unknown Speaker 36:01
Yeah, that's, that's something that carrot always says goes, if someone, if someone shows you who they are, believe it, then that's exactly the same thing, as you're saying. So you're right. And mediation would help and to get a lot of that upfront. However, however, and it I don't know if it would have worked with my axe, because, like, like, I was saying, Sure, heard knee jerk reaction was vindictiveness. And how I'm going to get you back, and I'm going to make your life hell. So one of the one of the tests that we do in our, in our book is to find out who you're divorcing and, and so, it makes you kind of aware of, and to start to study, like, like, like a detective would, in your, in your mind. And on paper, what, who you're divorcing.
Kirk Mosna 37:03
And to follow that up, we we also do a test, like beside it, who you are, because you might be your worst on your worst enemy. So if you're, if you're very combative, and you're, you know, you've got to win every single fight. And every argument is, is what you're going to be the problem. However, like I said, but if you're if you, if you take that test, and you find out who you're really divorcing, and you find and what we kind of, we kind of rated as to, you know, how, like, there's about 10 or 12 questions that kind of go through it. And, and, and the depending on what your score, it kind of tells you where you should be going in terms of legal help. And like I did a DIY divorce. I don't know how I did it, but I did it. Because I did it immediately. And that was the thing. So I was still in the house. And this was like three days after I announced it. I said, you know, she said, Okay, fine, we're going to divorce and I said, Okay, well, she said, I'm going to go get a lawyer says, well, before you do that, I said, you know, a lawyer is going to cost us at least 10,000 Each, okay, minimally.
Okay. So I said, rather than doing that, why don't we just do this, like, like, together and do it? Like online and we did it online. It was like it was we got it. We hammered out a Separation Agreement. I gave her everything. So it was really easy for so it's, it's not it wasn't difficult. I just I just tried to be as fair. It was me who was looking for this divorce. So it was willing to kind of just be as fair as as anybody could be. And I was I gave her like I said pretty much everything. And so, because of that, like I was able to like I said, do a DIY divorce or like what's another kitchen table divorce, they call that as the other one. Yeah, DIY. And handyman. But, but part of it says like, if you if you score when you do this, who am I divorcing? And who you are, and you and you go through it, and part of what it does is it helps you to say okay, you you like if you're very amicable Yeah, you could do what would I did? I don't know why the way I did it is I appealed to her sense of, of what I care about, like she valued money very much. So I said, Well, you know, if you want to, if you want to give if you want to put your lawyers kids through school, well, let's go to see a lawyer. I said, I don't really like that idea. I'd rather us do it ourselves and we can get through this. And so that worked for me. However, had I had I got gone the route that she had said She wants to go. Legal like through for lawyers. I don't know if I'd be divorced right now because she is. So she was so difficult and she wanted everything that she could possibly put on the table. And so one of the, like, part of the advice that that, that we've heard we've got from, from legal people and from and for ourselves is to say, get it done as quickly as you can. Because if it lingers, it just goes on and on and on. And it just gets, as everybody knows, it just gets more and more expensive. And so
Deena Kordt 40:40
and messy,
Kirk Mosna 40:41
and messy, right. And, and, you know, and so, damage, there's, oh, collateral damage is huge, well, like, you know, cuz, because if you have kids, these are the kinds of things so if, if the other person doesn't get what they want, what are they going to do, they're going to get back at you one way or the other and, and children going back to alienation, they're that they're the best, you know, kind of defense for somebody who's trying to alienate you, right, or trying to get back at you. You know, like, the industry is talking about a bunch of different things they call, you know, there's a lot of talk about narcissism and NPD, and so on. And it'll, the more the person is like this, the like, and, and suffers from an NPD, or makes you suffer from NPD, the more likely they're going to be alienator is because they just have to win, right? That's just their way. And so, again, it's just get it, get her, get it going, get through it as quickly as you can. And, you know, like, you're, it's, it's, it's a lot of work. But the quicker you get it done, the happier you're going to be. And so, my divorce went through really quickly, Karen's was different. She, she had similar situations, like similar kind of person who had to make her life miserable. And hers is, takes a little, it's taken a lot longer, and it just is. It's, it's, it's just so stressful on on, on your emotions.
Deena Kordt 42:31
I like that, I think that's a good place to kind of wrap up today. Be cooperative, try and get through this as quick as you can consider other options that, you know, you can, hopefully do adequate, and, and watch for those red flags, where you may be facing some alienation as a parent, I think that's, that's amazing. So your contact information will be shared in the show notes so people can reach out and connect with you. And I really, highly recommend that people check out your Instagram, and your social media posts, because there's so much value, you guys have put out some really great content there that is very informative and supportive and encouraging for for people around divorce and separation. So we are excited to be watching for your new workbook that's coming out. And we'll have you in Karen back on the show and introduce the book were not as available as well. And there's just there's so much gold that you guys have to offer. Thank you for the gifts that you're creating for everyone. And we will definitely talk again.
Kirk Mosna 43:41
Well, thanks for inviting us on the show. It was a real pleasure meeting you and you're doing great work and what a great service you're providing for for people going through this very difficult journey. So thank you very much. I
Deena Kordt 43:59
appreciate that. Thank you.
Kirk Mosna 44:00
Thank you.
Deena Kordt 44:01
Hopefully you heard something today that helps you wherever you might be in life. Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social. Know anyone who might find this information helpful. Be a friend and share it. And hey, thank you for hanging out with me today. Keep smiling up beautiful smile. The world needs your sunshine.
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