#56 Into-Me-See. Mastering Intimacy
With Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad
Where should you start when you want to improve the intimacy in your relationships?
My guest today is the wonderful Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad, Relationship Therapist and Author of "Into-Me-See". Her advice may surprise you. The place to start improving intimacy may not be where you expect and her book offers insights & wisdom to get there.
For more information, you can find Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad online @ tmicounselingandcoaching.com
Book a session:
Call 843-872-6411
Email tmicounselingandcoaching@gmail.com
YouTube: TMI Counseling and Coaching
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Watch the video of this interview on our YouTube channel.
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Transcript:
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 0:00
Hi, this is Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.
Deena Kordt 0:07
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I have the loveliest guest on today. This woman is so beautiful on the inside and out. And what she has to share is very encouraging as far as building relationships and intimacy in those relationships, and it's very interesting, where she says we should start with that. It's maybe not what you think. Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad is with me today. And you are just going to love her. Let's meet her now.
Welcome, Dr. Jeannelle. I have been so looking forward to talking to you. And I'm quite fascinated to hear more from your background, your experience as a therapist, and your book is really an amazing tool that you have built for people as well. So we are going to talk about a lot of that. But first, please tell us about yourself. And how did you become a therapist? What led you to that line of work? We're just so excited to have you welcome.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 3:28
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me, I have to say that I didn't know that I was going to be in this line of work. It was kind of thrust upon me. And I gravitated toward it. I was like, Okay, let's make it happen. But I think what really happened for me was early on in my life, my parents were ministers. And so they were the marriage excellence ministers and the finance ministers in our church. And I used to watch people come and go for counseling over and over and over again, same people, sometimes same couples, because it wasn't just couples all the time. It was individuals, especially when you're talking about finances. And I would think to myself as a fly on the wall, why didn't they get that play? That makes sense. And I wasn't listening in as much as it is that I knew what my parents were saying because not only were they ministers, but they were organization development specialists. And so we flipped charted through life. Every time there was a decision to be made. There was a flip chart to be had. So I grew up understanding the letter of in France and understanding what you're feeling and were you feeling it in your body and all of these questions, but I wasn't thinking about it from the perspective that it was anything different. I just figured it was what everybody did in their lives. What I realized though, is from a ministry perspective, the spiritual space that core beliefs and values use that system that we grew up in sometimes hinders us from making practical decisions.
And so whether we're tree huggers or gotta put our feet in the dirt, kind of people are laying prostrate on an altar before God, asking him to remove whatever burden exists. We don't always get up from that space and think now, what do I do next? And what are those steps? And where are the resources? And how do I manage this life? That's before me. And when you're doing that, as a couple, it becomes even more challenging, because you're talking about more than one person who has to be on the same page.
Deena Kordt 5:42
It does. So complexity, yes, it does.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 5:45
So I went back to school and said, Okay, I was a business communications major, prior in my undergrad. And I said, Well, I want to figure out how we do this better, particularly in my community. Because we have in the US the highest divorce rate in the country as a whole. We have the highest divorce rate in the southeast, we have the highest divorce rate in South Carolina, where I live. And we have the highest divorce rate across religions. So when you talk about the black church, we have the highest divorce rate. Now, there are many things that go into that, that I talk about in the book, right. And yet, we don't have a lot of therapists that look like me, to help us parse, pull apart, figure out what we need to be doing differently in order to make that transition. So that's why I went back to school, and got my master's in marriage and family therapy, and then decided I was going to get my PhD. Because we also as an African American community, and I realized we're not a monolith. So I'm not saying everyone, but often, we are only listening to those individuals who are doctors or reverends, or bishops or, because again, there's that spiritual component. And we have some level of belief that if you went to school long enough, then you must know how to help me. And so I said, Okay, I'm going to get my doctorate. And not only am I going to do this from a counseling perspective, but also from an education and a supervision perspective, because I need to teach other counselors how to be culturally competent, and how to help us because there's literally one to 3%, depending on where you are, have African American therapist in the country?
Deena Kordt 7:40
Oh, my goodness, that is very surprising. I had no idea and yet the rate of divorce, and that's divorce, and what about all the struggles leading up to that?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 7:52
Exactly. Not to mention, you know, I do family therapy. So not to mention the fact that there's so much trauma that's experienced that is intergenerational trauma, right, that has come all the way through from slavery. And we don't always think about how that impacts the mental health of the individual. Before we even get to the couple.
Deena Kordt 8:17
Well, that would have impacts that are profound, and like negative impacts, long lasting and very, very deeply felt, you know, it's part of a almost a tradition isn't the right word, but it's part of the way the culture has grown in this continent.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 8:40
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you're right, it's not tradition, it is a depth of trauma, that is cultural conditioning. That says that it's okay to treat to harm to misuse, people who just happen to be in a different shade of skin. So it's not just the African American community, it's a bipoc. You know, it's black, indigenous and people of color. And we're experiencing trauma, either vicariously or directly, that most people around us are not. And as a result, the levels of anxiety and depression that we experience, the numbers and personality disorders that are increasing the levels of suicide that exists are just tremendous. And we know that the disparities in health care, when we think about it, we usually are thinking from a physical component physical health, but the mental health component is similar.
Deena Kordt 9:50
Devastating.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 9:52
And, but there are ways to, there are ways to get to help that right.
Deena Kordt 9:56
So you're doing your part.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 9:59
I'm trying to Have everything in me to do my part. And that's what this book is really about. Into Macy, mastering black intimacy for the relationship you've always wanted is about asking yourself those questions. What is it that I would like to see in my relationships? How would I like to function in my relationships? Who am I in relationships? So I think of relationships is every encounter, every engagement, every experience you have with another person is a relationship. So if you do well, in your platonic relationships, by the time you get to the romantic ones should be good to go. But we got to do well, in the photonic ones.
Deena Kordt 10:43
Yes. And we have a lot to learn in that area as well. And I have to say, I haven't read the entire book. But there is so much value there for anyone. And I know that you have written this very much with the black community in mind. And you know, that is the focus of this. And you do talk to some of those cultural experiences that they maybe haven't thought of in that perspective. And so I can really appreciate that, and especially now that you've created some context around that, but there is so much value for anyone, so any of my listeners, make sure to check this out. It's it's not a massive book. It's very usable. And like I was saying to you just before we started recording, Dr. Janelle, I found that I was intrigued and why I haven't read the whole book is because I've been looking at the table of contents and went, Oh, I'm curious about this. And I slipped to that area and back to another area. And I was pleased to hear that that that was an intention that that you had when you built this book? Is that absolutely a way of a reference to you can go back and reference different things. So I'm really pleased, please continue. Tell us more about about the book that you do.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 12:00
Well, I think that what's important about that aspect of the book is that it's to two populations in particular that I was speaking to. And the first one, of course, being the black community, and being able to say, hey, there's some challenges that we're having, and guess what, a lot of people are having them. So I pulled apart a number of clients who are experiencing different levels and who have difficulty and who have been together for, you know, 30 years versus two years versus, you know, 15 in between type of situations, and really did dig at, what are the cultural components of this, that make it more challenging for the relationships to flourish? And then how do you begin to learn something new, so that you now can be more intentional about finding ways to enrich and maintain what is working well, and then to change those things that need to be changed so that you can begin the process of renewing relationship. And some of that means digging back into the history of those individuals and finding out how they came to know and how they came to understand and believe. Because we all got our systems of belief from someplace, right, we didn't just kind of stumble upon them. So the other population was my colleagues and my peers to say, Hey, you guys, there's this other perspective that's going on. And one of the reasons that we have so much misdiagnosis, in terms of the black community is that you're not considering what the culture is doing in terms of mental health. So now let's take a deep dive. So those three or four chapters that are specific to the African American community are really for everyone. Because if we all suddenly realize that by saying something like I'm colorblind, you really are impacting an African American person or a person of color, by saying you not you do not exist. I don't even see you.
Deena Kordt 14:21
Or that your unique and your struggles are your
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 14:24
core. You're not unique at all. And everyone has some attribute that is unique, right? But the first thing you see what I walked through the door is my color. Let's not deny that that's true. Yeah. I once had someone tell me, they didn't recognize that I was African American. When they first met me. They knew that I was smart. And I said, when I walked through the door, I had not yet opened my mouth. How could you determine that? And they said, Well, I just figured that based on the way you were dressed, you had to be a smart person. So I did not even think to myself that you were African American. True? No. And I get it. You know, sometimes it's difficult because people don't want to be perceived as being racist. But just to say that you see me does not make you racist. No, you're just acknowledge knowledge exist.
Deena Kordt 15:19
And now this, this is a little bit of a tangent. But the first story that came to my mind was when I was a child, about 10 or so was the first time I encountered someone with a British accent, and it was another girl. And I said, I was just fascinated, totally fascinated, I said, I, I just, I absolutely love your accent. And she looked at me and said, I don't have an accent, you have an accent? And what was what that has stuck with me, it was so powerful, because you have a skin color, I have a skin color. So we're like, it's there. Yeah. Just see acknowledge you're not a you're not insulting someone by acknowledging that, you have to see them, you see them, then you see them for who they are. That's not, you know, what, that's a sad indication of the, of the concept of the misconception of, of racism. And that's, it's almost insulting to say that I didn't notice that. Right.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 16:19
And it is, and, and that is exactly what my point is, in, pulling together these resources in this book, is to say, take the opportunity to really get to know us and to know the truth about our culture, not what the media says we are, and which is not always positive, not what you think you've heard from generations of family members who have had one bad experience in some space. Even you know, when people say things to me, like, Yeah, but you're different. I want to know how, because I am of the same culture, I may not have experienced everything that my brothers and sisters have. At the same time, I do have a deep understanding and connection to some of the pain that has existed. And I'm doing everything I can to help us find new ways of coping, and getting through the trauma that is to come because it does continue day by day.
Deena Kordt 17:22
So appreciate the clarification that you've brought to the the intention and the audience that, you know, this is for everybody. And I'm happy that you, you really clarified that because it is true. I was fascinated to read some of those portions that you have written, and you're speaking to the black community. But I thought this is really interesting. I hadn't thought of, you know, how certain elements of your culture has affected their their relationships and intimacy. And so it's a, it's a beautiful way to help everyone, like you said, your colleagues, I help us have more compassion and understanding, and especially in the role, say that I'm playing where I'm trying to help connect people that need help through some difficult transitions or decisions, not promoting divorce, we've talked about that, we'll get to that. With the resources that are out there. And so for me to have a better understanding as well. It's I so appreciate that I really do.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 18:28
Yeah, thank you. I, you know, one of the things that I think is most important is to recognize that when we learn to communicate with one another, with empathy, and with an understanding of our feelings, what we truly are experiencing, and even knowing where we feel things in our bodies, we are better able to make decisions that are quality of life decisions for the better. Right? When we are not as self aware, we suddenly find ourselves doing things that eliminate the ability to have really great relationships. So you know, I talked to people about if you are angry, taking a moment to step back and sit in assess, am I angry? Or am I disappointed? Am I angry? Or am I sad? And what is this really about? Is it about what's happening right now in present day, or this about something that happened 10 years ago, and I really just didn't deal with it then. So it looks like the same thing. So guess what, I'm angry. And I actually I'm disappointed and I'm disappointed. I'm going to respond differently than I would if I were angry.
Deena Kordt 19:49
And do you find that when you work with people in in your therapy practice and you have them? Have them? Try using that method of dealing with anger or dealing with, you know, like a feeling as strong a strong feeling. With practice, does it become a quicker go to as to your responses or reactions and your pot, you'll catch yourself and pause before having that really strong lashing out say?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 20:21
Absolutely. And initially, it's very difficult for them, because, first of all, you have to have the vocabulary for it. And that's one of the things I put in the book on Yes, this is a chart to really say, what are you feeling? Where do you feel this? How is it showing up? Because in all actuality, when we think about it, when we say someone has a bad attitude, attitude in and of itself is neutral. It's not bad or good. It's the behavior that follows. That gives it its definition. Now, because I've either lashed out and hurt someone, or I've decided to be more quiet and curious, you've determined that I either have a good attitude or a bad attitude. Ooh, but it's because we understand what we're feeling that we can now determine what the attitude is going to be. And then determine also what the behavior is going to be. Because it's your thoughts that really give you the feeling. And then the behavior, and then a consequence, whether good or bad. So if you learn to get to a place where you can manage and control your thoughts, and decide whether some whether something is real or not. Or am I spiraling? Because I don't know. Not knowing is tough, brings about a lot of anxiety. So am I spiraling? Because I don't know. And now I'm feeling anxiety. And now before I know it, okay, I'm irritable. And now, I'm going to screen. I'm just going to say, you get on my nerves, and I may even use a curse word, right? So now I've cursed at my partner. And he has decided he's not talking to me, he's shutting down. So we're all in the spiral. Whereas if I thought for a moment, does he really mean to tell me I look fat? No, that's not what he's saying. What he's saying is, he doesn't particularly like this dress. And you know what I want him to like what I wear. So I'm going to choose to feel that he has my best interest at heart, am I go ahead and make a change, or change the dress, I that's the behavior, I go down and he says, ooh, you look good.
Deena Kordt 22:40
Well, different outcome, then. Not only is he talking to you, but
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 22:47
you might be having a little extra something
Deena Kordt 22:51
for you ever take out for dinner? That is really fascinating. I have heard this before. And you mentioned that chart in the book. And I saw it. And I have heard that theory of how we only use maybe four or five words to describe our feelings and emotions. And we and we get kind of hung up on just trying to define what we're feeling, if we even pause to explore that, with those few words. But there's a massive vocabulary of and you have a beautiful example of that in the book of how we can maybe better define what we're feeling. And as we grow our vocabulary, and learn to pause, it is going to change our relationships. And again, these can be with siblings, family, coworkers, friends, as well as you know, our significant others.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 23:46
Absolutely. And you know, it's interesting that you bring that up, because we're only born with six emotions. Think about that for a minute. We're born with only six. So that means someone has to teach us the others. So if someone taught you that angry looked more subdued, right? And you showed up, and they said, well, and you said, I'm angry that you don't look angry. Well, I am. I am really pissed off right now.
Deena Kordt 24:18
Or thought about it's true.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 24:20
And there's teach you what anger looked like, right? And so that's why couples often have such difficulty connecting with one another when they get in those spaces that are challenging, and they're miscommunicating and so forth. Because they're looking going, you're not getting angry about you know, this man and you should be protecting me from so and so and show me the anger and he's like, but I am and I'm going to tell him off. And he goes and uses some long soliloquy to tell this and you want him to Chimp Yeah,
Deena Kordt 24:54
I do that too, when I'm actually blessed with my partner who's so calm And I know like this guy, there's times he's got to be upset about things. And it's kind of like that is he's just even keeled guy. And it really helps. It helps me because I came from many, many, like over 30 years from an abusive situation where I had to keep that anger quiet or keep it low. And I'm now in a place where, when there is a trigger, I can blow up, it's pretty rare. But I know I'm safe to do so. And he absorbs that, which I don't know that. That's not fair. Because it's it's kind of bringing some some baggage right from from the past. But yes, we have different ways of of showing that. And I still find that I don't always take that pause, I might create some story in my head and just run with it. And it might be whatever, you know, you're, you're insulted or you're, it's not always negative either. But it is interesting that we can practice that and we can become better
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 26:14
and much better at it. Absolutely. And it does create those
Deena Kordt 26:17
safe spaces, then.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 26:19
Yeah, safe spaces are so important too. And it's not just again, I go back to you know, every relationship you have. It's not just with a spouse or a partner, it really is a matter of being able to say to friends, even or family members, I need to save space to speak right now, do you have space for me to whatever it is that you want to call it? And allow them the opportunity to say yes or no, because it could be that at that moment, they cannot absorb another thing. And you might have to self soothe, you might actually have to regulate your own emotions, you might actually have to do some internal work so that you can focus and not allow the external to make you angry, or to make you overly happy about something that happened to someone else. Right? Do you have any
Deena Kordt 27:08
quick little tools that you could just suggest for people around the self soothing self regulating? Oh, well, I think the biggest two things that
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 27:15
would Yeah, the biggest. And the first thing you'd need to do is to really stop for a moment and ask yourself, Is this real? Is what I'm experiencing real or imagined? Or have I made this up a bit, have concocted more to it than exists. And sometimes that can be very difficult. But when you're truly self aware, you know, when you're adding to a story, you know, when it's just no, the truth of the matter is this is a white piece of paper, and it's sitting on the desk, that's all it is. Or they put that white piece of paper on that desk because they know that I don't like white paper, I like yellow paper, and they decided that they want and that happens. So the first thing is asking yourself, Is this real or imagined? Did I add to it? Right? And then the next thing is, where do I feel this in my body. Because if you feel it in your tummy, right, that's about your core being weak, you know, when we get a trainer, the first thing he says is you got to strengthen your core. Because without a strong core, a strong center, you can't even sit up straight. You can't pull yourself up off of the ground without help. So if you feel it in your center, that's about a week, notice in your core, something in your belief system in your core is happening. If you feel it in your chest, that's about the passion you have for a thing. So if that passion is being neglected, or if it's being dismissed, you're feeling it in your chest and you can then put the the name of the feeling with it. If you're feeling it in your throat, that's about being voiceless. I don't think I don't feel like I have a voice. So anything below the nose in the throat, right? If you're feeling it from the nose and above, that's all about the thinking center. I have difficulty making decisions. And I cannot get out of this ruminating space. Where do I feel this? And then naming it. This is what I'm feeling in this space. Betrayal. Woof. I feel that in my throat. Okay, how am I going to find the voice to admit to say that I feel betrayed, what are the words I can use? Because I can't continue to stay in a space where I'm silent.
Deena Kordt 29:40
That's powerful.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 29:43
That's how you do some emotional regulation. And the more you do that, the quicker that will happen for you. And you'll go oh, wait a minute that I felt that before. I know what that is. That's rejection. I don't Okay, why am I feeling rejected right now? Well, no one around me is doing, oh, I've just been bumped. See, there's a difference between triggers and bumps. Triggers are very painful, right?
Deena Kordt 30:08
So tell us more, right? Triggers are very,
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 30:12
very painful, right? Triggers are like, your reactive to a trigger. But you can be responsive to a bump. A bump may be something that says, Oh, I've, I've seen this before. But now I know that it's not real. So I'll give you an example from my own life. My partner and I have great communication. But that's because I work really hard at making sure that we do, we've only been seeing each other for a little over a year. Right. And so one of the things that happened to me once is that he said he was going to show up for something at a particular time, and wasn't able to do so. The immediate bump in my chest, the passion for me is the I show up where I say, I'm going to show up when I say I'm going to show up, the bump in my chest was he's not truthful. Not trigger a bump, because I immediately went, Oh, wait a minute. That's never happened with him before. And this isn't the same person as the one who lied before. Okay, nope. So I took my deep breaths, calmed myself down, because that's how I do it. Right. And then when he showed up, I was ecstatic to see him
Deena Kordt 31:28
get different results. Yes. So bumps will be. So we can be aware of that, depending on kind of the reaction that we had. And the more we practice, managing the triggers, the bumps, there'll be more bumps and triggers in training, hopefully, what happens? And, you know, I have to say, I have caught myself, actually mid reaction after a trigger. And, you know, it had a lot to do with this calmness that was receiving, you know, from my partner receiving this reaction. And I did pause and go, Well, no, what I'm no, that's not right. I was trying, you know, I was, I was saying something. I'm like, Well, no, that's not fair. That's not fair. That's not right. And I could feel because he wasn't reacting me or he wasn't mirroring, then the the size of my reaction, he was a little confused, where it had come from right. But also that allowed for me to be more fair, and to begin that self regulating. Yeah. And so we can sometimes if we have that capacity to offer the space for someone, we can help them work through that a bit.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 32:46
Sure, sure. And then hopefully come to the place where you're able to work through it for yourself, because you don't want to be codependent either. No, right. You want to be in a space where you can work through that on your own. And that takes practice. And that takes time. And it takes self awareness. Oh my goodness, understanding what you need in order to be full and whole and yourself. Calm. I sometimes calm is a challenging word. I think connected is better, sometimes than calm. Because you're really seeking to have connection. When dysregulated
Deena Kordt 33:30
and calm can just be denial, you aren't really looking at what's happening you, you just bring yourself to a calm place. But let's not look in that dark corner of what was going on in my body or in my mind. Connection
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 33:46
versus let me connect with myself and find out what I need. Let me connect with my partner and figure out what we really mean. How we can be more intentional.
Deena Kordt 34:02
And that naturally leads to healthier intimacy.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 34:07
It's that it's the emotional component of it. You know what I talk about cognitive, emotional, spiritual, and then physical. That's not linear, either that is a securities route. You can bounce back and forth around up and down and inside of that all day, and still find the space where there may be a little bit of conflict. But the more you're willing to connect with one another. To see one another fully, to be open to new experiences with each other, the easier it becomes to be truly intimate.
Deena Kordt 34:44
And being connected to yourself that you hear often about being self aware, but I love I love that. Picture that connection to yourself. Draws because that's the that's the beginning. That's the root of And then being able to connect in a healthy way to others
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 35:04
well into me see, is really about first looking into me, see, and then being able to look into you
Deena Kordt 35:14
see, and that's the title of your book
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 35:17
is B, or you can see into us into me see is a trifecta. Me, then you, then us
Deena Kordt 35:27
it's beautiful. I'm just You're, you're fascinating lady and you can so clearly articulate these concepts and, and bring a new light, you know, to them a new way of seeing them. And I just find that really exciting and encouraging. And, and I think anybody listening as well will feel really inspired intrigue to go out and practice some of this, and, and see where it goes. Because even just the story of the difference, whether you're the man in that little scenario, or the woman in that little scenario about the dress, who wouldn't you just want to try that, try that out in a different way and approach things differently. And that could relate to, you know, how dinner was made, who handled the children for bedtime, whatever it might mean. So it can be applied anywhere. And just take that moment and think about the the reactions that you're feeling really amazing. Is there anything else that you would like to add? As we call it, I could go on and on every chapter, every section of this book, I mean, you talk about you talk about attachment styles, the love languages, these are things we hear about, and are, you know, either fairly or vaguely familiar with. But I love that you've incorporated those into your teaching here and your guidance.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 37:02
Yeah, and I make it more practical to the clients that I was working with, right. And so each time that we were in session, and they received new information, they were the ones responsible for going back and utilizing that, right. And so when I talk about it, I'm not just saying, Oh, here's what it is to have the love languages. And here's what it is to have the attachment styles and what they mean, as much as it is, here's how they worked in this situation. And then you get this incredible opportunity to say, Oh, I wonder how that might work if I were doing something different. So I think that the the probably the last thing I would say, at this particular time is we have a tendency, I think on this continent to really think in terms of generational wealth, what are we going to leave to the people around us. And I truly believe that the greatest generational wealth that we can bestow is emotional and mental wellness. When we do that, whatever finances land, homes, etc, you leave will be well cared for, and the quality of life in utilizing them will be far more exceptional than you can imagine.
Deena Kordt 38:26
I absolutely agree. What a beautiful gift to leave to the next generations. And that wellness. Thank you, Dr. Jeannelle. It's been truly a pleasure to have you on the show and to be my guest and have this conversation. You're such a just a beautiful soul. Truly. Thank
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad 38:47
you. Thank you. I loved it.
Deena Kordt 38:50
Hopefully you heard something today that helps you wherever you might be in life. Do you have questions or a suggestion for a topic you want to know more about? Let me know. Check the show notes for all the contact information. Follow this podcast and find us on social. Know anyone who might find this information helpful. Be a friend and share it. And hey, thank you for hanging out with me today. Keep smiling up beautiful smile. The world needs your sunshine.
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